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| Marshall Member Joined Feb 7, 2002 1202 posts Location: Langley, BC |
 1 Corinthians 12: the gifted body of Christ |
Posted Oct 31, 2006; 4:12 am |
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1 Corinthians 12 (ESV):
Spiritual Gifts
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
One Body with Many Members
12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body -- Jews or Greeks, slaves or free -- and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19 If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you." 22 On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, 24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, 25 that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.
And I will show you a still more excellent way.
Scripture quotations are from The Holy Bible, English Standard Version, copyright © 2001 by Crossway Bibles, a division of Good News Publishers. Used by permission. All rights reserved.
Introductory questions
These are just to spur thinking on this chapter; feel free to ask your own questions or post comments unrelated to these.
- What is the difference between the gifts of uttering wisdom and uttering knowledge (verse 8)?
 LOADED QUESTION ALERT Does the church today still have all parts of the body listed in verses 8-10, or have there been some amputations?
- Does a skilled physician have the gift of healing, and is someone who quickly learns new languages gifted in tongues? In other words, how do these gifts connect with "natural" gifts?
- Which of the "body problems" dealt with in verses 14-26 strikes closest to home for you? What about for your local church body? What about for our denomination?
- LOADED QUESTION ALERT Paul speaks of parts that seem weaker or seem less honourable, and then mentions parts that are unpresentable (verse 23). What are the unpresentable parts of the church, and how should we treat them with more modesty than the rest?
- How does the list in verse 28 relate to the earlier list of gifts?
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| lornewel Member Joined May 11, 2004 571 posts Location: Abbotsford |
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Posted Nov 1, 2006; 10:34 am |
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Thanks, Marshall, for the initial questions. This passage is one about which different believers hold different views, and the prevalence of those views seems to vary both over time and in different places - sometimes according to what God seems to be doing. Many, perhaps most, "revivals" (some widespread and some more localized) are reported to have been accompanied by various manifestations of the Spirit, and give shape to the then current understanding of such scriptures as 1Corinthians 12. A couple of things which seem to be a pattern concerning "moves of God" and the associated manifestations:
1. Some individuals focus on the manifestations and go to extremes, contributing to the backlash by others.
2. Over time, the manifestations come to be accepted as genuine and they are "pastored" by gifted leaders in order to be of benefit to the body. The "extremists" become marginalized, often going off to do their own thing, or start their own "denomination."
3. The greatest critics and opponents of the current "move of God" are those who were in the center of the previous one. They were alive and were profoundly affected by the previous revival and they consequently "know" how God works, and it sure ain't how these new guys are carrying on!
| Quote: | | What is the difference between the gifts of uttering wisdom and uttering knowledge (verse 8)? |
In some English versions, these are rendered as "word of wisdom" and "word of knowledge." Generally Knowledge is thought of as possession of facts, while wisdom is understanding the appropriate way to apply the knowledge to particular situations. Humans all acquire knowledge, and may add to it by various intentional structured modes of education. Some people seem to have personalities with more innate insight or wisdom, and that tends to grow with experience and maturation. But this is in "the natural" or learned qualities.
Paul is writing about "charismata" which are gifts of grace, undeserved and unearned (and unlearned?) I would think "word of knowledge" would be like Peter knowing by revelation what Ananias and Sapphira had done and what was in their hearts and how God was going to respond to that. Those who watched certainly knew that this was divine, not human, insight and great awe of God gripped the people.
I am trying to think of a NT instance of "word of wisdom." Perhaps James' conclusion at the Jerusalem council (Acts 15). An OT example of the distinction could be Joseph. God revealed to him the content and meaning of Pharoah's dream (word of knowledge) and of what would transpire in the climate over the next 14 years, but also seems to have given him a "word of wisdom" about how to respond. Now Joseph seems to have had a bent for management anyway, because he always rose to positions of trust and management, even while enslaved and imprisoned. But this went beyond that, for it was God's way to preserve his chosen people. Hmm, but maybe his management as also a divine gift, for it is said repeatedly of his promotions that "the Lord was with him."
Last edited by lornewel on Nov 2, 2006; 10:22 pm; edited 1 time in total. |
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| lornewel Member Joined May 11, 2004 571 posts Location: Abbotsford |
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Posted Nov 2, 2006; 11:11 am |
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| Quote: | | LOADED QUESTION ALERT Does the church today still have all parts of the body listed in verses 8-10, or have there been some amputations? |
What could be more fun than responding to a loaded question?
There are some who believe and teach that some of the gifts listed in these verses are "not for today." I disagree with that view. The Spirit imparts those gifts to each person (body member) individually as He wills. (verse 11) And He does so "for the common good." Indeed, the whole last half of chapter 12 is given to emphasizing forwards and backwards the critical necessity of every part of the body as the Spirit has endowed them. So unless one considers the church (and the world) today as less needy than the early church (and I surely don't), one would have to doubt that God would eliminate any body part's function. The church is Jesus' body. It was designed and endowed by God. Jesus said the members were given to him by the Father and that he did not lose any. John 17:6-9
It is widely reported that all these gifts are fully functioning in the church at places in the world. But there are some denominations and/or local churches who make no place for some of these. So it seems to me that while some "body parts" may not have been totally amputated, they have atrophied for lack of exercise.
That there can be misuse of these gifts is beyond dispute. See 1 Corinthians 14 for Paul's instruction on the proper place of the gifts of tongues and prophecy in the church. Those two get a lot of negative attention in our own day. And it seems a very big reason for the continuing controversy is that Paul's teaching in chapter 14 that the gifts are for the good of the whole church and not for drawing attention to oneself is often ignored. We should desire spritual gifts, but especially those which build up the body. 1Corinthians 14:5 That chapter (14) is also useful for its teaching that we can ask for and seek after a particular gift if it is one the body is in need of. That passage also teaches us that the human can exercise control in the use of the gift. We are not "overcome" by a spritual gift and helpless to stop it. A person prophesying can shut up and sit down and let someone else have a turn contributing to the good of all. I am sure this is a principle not restricted to that one gift. Can you imagine that the person with the gift of administration just can't stop herself from doing the church's bookkeeping when it is lunchtime?
Come on all you "hard cessationists", "soft cessationists" and "continuationists," this is time to jump into the conversation "for the common good." I know you are out there. I have met you in person and/or on paper or online. |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2927 posts |
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Posted Nov 2, 2006; 1:35 pm |
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OK, I'll add my 2 cents to a few of these questions -
What is the difference between the gifts of uttering wisdom and uttering knowledge (verse 8)? Lornewel answered this as I see it also.
LOADED QUESTION ALERT Does the church today still have all parts of the body listed in verses 8-10, or have there been some amputations?
'The church' will always have access to all these gifts as the Holy Spirit determines to give them out. I believe these are not active in many local congregations for various reasons and one being that we have strayed from an expectation that God still will operate in the supernatural. Our mainly, human, intellectual approachs too often get in the way of faith and trust in God's ways. His ways are not our ways nor His thoughts our thoughts.
Does a skilled physician have the gift of healing, and is someone who quickly learns new languages gifted in tongues? In other words, how do these gifts connect with "natural" gifts?
I don't see any connection. Spiritual gifts, IMO, are not anything that is 'natural' and can only reside in a born again Christian. I have not agreed with the popular teaching on gifts that place natural abilities dedicated to the Lord on the same level as Spiritual gifts. I believe some of this teaching comes from people who have difficulty with believing that God naturally operates in the supernatural. I believe in what Jesus said that without Him we can do nothing and that Jesus operating in and through us is a supernatural way of living for every born again believer. Natural gifts do not require a reborn spirit even though they can be wonderful blessings from God.
Which of the "body problems" dealt with in verses 14-26 strikes closest to home for you? What about for your local church body? What about for our denomination?
I believe 'the body' includes all born again believers in any denomination so I think one of the problems that we must guard against is not loving all our brothers and sisters in the Lord as we should. Regardless of our differences in secondary beliefs, modes of worship, etc., we are still part of the family of God and members of the same body. If Christ will take up residence in all of us, who are we to maintain divisive attitudes. For instance, even though many born again, Salvation Army Christians are not baptised in water, they too are part of this body and reflect the Christ Spirit as they excel in the practical helps to the marginalized in our society. Our testimony as Christians is reflected to the world on our love for one another and we must watch that denominations are not divisions within the true church.
Do we not see more obvious Spiritual gifts active in our churches because the Holy Spirit is chosing today to operate differently ? Is this an excuse we make for our own lack of surrender and lack of faith in God working in us ? Is the Holy Spirit so grieved by our worldliness that He does not give out these gifts to be abused ? Since God wants no one to perish, why would He refrain from using the supernatural to draw people to Himself ? These are some of the questions I ponder. Any thoughts and/or insights by others would be appreciated. |
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| hugoestr Member Joined Oct 18, 2006 16 posts |
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Posted Nov 2, 2006; 5:03 pm |
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Cool. The discussions are picking up. I will have to think through this one and post soon.  |
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| vanislandwoman |
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Posted Nov 2, 2006; 11:29 pm |
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| I've been regarding the body of Christ, the church, in a new way lately. I think that the parts of the body do not refer only to the individual Christians in a local church. The parts of the body could also be reakoned as the different congregations and also as the different denominations. Thus, one church or one denomination may be gifted through the Holy Spirit with more or less of any of the gifts. And so one part of the body (a congregation or a denomination) should not fault another for it's particular giftings and strengths. We should also not be too critical if a particular gift is not demonstrated in some churches. After all, we don't expect each Christian to have all the gifts. So maybe we shouldn't expect each congregation or each denomination to have all the gifts either. We need each other, it takes all of us to be the body of Christ. And when a congregation or denomination does have all the gifts endowed upon it, then praise be to God, and may they bring glory to his name! |
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| lornewel Member Joined May 11, 2004 571 posts Location: Abbotsford |
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Posted Nov 3, 2006; 1:09 am |
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| Quote: | | LOADED QUESTION ALERT Paul speaks of parts that seem weaker or seem less honourable, and then mentions parts that are unpresentable (verse 23). What are the unpresentable parts of the church, and how should we treat them with more modesty than the rest? |
As I said before, it's fun to respond to a loaded question. Makes me wonder what the "loader" is up to! And nobody else has tackled this one yet.
Now in the context of the passage, the "body parts" are individuals gifted by the Holy Spirit for the good of all. So "unpresentable" cannot mean "bad." In the beginning, God saw everything he made and declared it good. It was only after the fall that any part of the human body was considered "unpresentable." Animals seem to have no shame about their body parts. "Modesty" seems to be a soft word for "shame."
I would say we cannot presume Paul was talking about covering up sin in the body, for everything else in scripture tells us that it should be exposed. Perhaps, as in human society generally, ways that it is OK to appear at home may not be OK (immodest) in public, eg. walking about nude or in your underwear. So are there some gifts or gifted persons who are to be seen inside but not outside the church or ways that gifts should not be displayed to outsiders - maybe like pearls before swine? One possibility is that which Paul addresses in 1 Cor 14:23 "So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?"
I have been is some small meetings where all are believers and are praying. Several may be praying in tongues and it does not disrupt anything, since the others all know what that is. They are not "speaking in tongues" as in delivering a prophecy that needs interpretation. They are praying to God quietly just as others in the group are praying softly in a learned language. However, if outsiders were to enter the room, it might be best for the praying in tongues, or even the praying all at once, to cease lest they "say that you are out of your mind." |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2927 posts |
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Posted Nov 3, 2006; 4:23 pm |
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| Quote: | | And when a congregation or denomination does have all the gifts endowed upon it, then praise be to God, and may they bring glory to his name! |
This passage ends with - | Quote: | | But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way. |
I believe we (each local faith group) should desire and be open to receiving all of these supernatural gifts. According to 1 Cor. 1:7 the Corinthian church had all of the spiritual gifts active but as we read further they lacked wisdom in how to use some of them and seemed to have some confusion on what gifts were of most importance. This seems to be much of the same challenge today in congregations were the gifts are so obviously manifested. I believe these gifts also have nothing to do with levels of spirituality. I further believe these gifts can be counterfeited by Satan and need to be tested to see if they have been given by the Holy Spirit and not some other spirit. These gifts should build up and aid in the sanctification process of the church.
Some people believe we are not to 'earnestly desire' the best gifts but I believe we are but with the right motive in mind to bring glory to God and not ourselves. However, as the next chapter continues there is a 'more excellent way' that without this way, these gifts will not serve their intended purpose. |
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| gay lynn voth Member Joined Jan 25, 2005 732 posts |
| connections between the 'spiritual' and the 'natural' |
Posted Nov 4, 2006; 11:50 am |
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I am responding to question #3:
| Quote: | Does a skilled physician have the gift of healing, and is someone who quickly learns new languages gifted in tongues? In other words, how do these gifts connect with "natural" gifts?
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If a skilled physican does not have the gifted ability to heal, then what does he have? The gifted ability to practice medicine? Isn't the practice of medicine intended to provide 'healing'? I would argue the skilled physican is gifted to heal using all the natural resources available to her or to him.
Our bodies are also gifted with the ability to heal naturally ... It is part of the 'miracle' of creation, I would think
It would seem that all miracles are of a supernatural occurance - i.e healing which occurs spontaneously, without medical intervention, and beyond the capability of the body to generate its own healing - and do not rely on 'natural' means but on the supernatural intervention of God in natural events, disease, and disorder of human lives.
While the miracle has a natural outcome - i.e. physical healing - the source of this outcome has a 'supernatural' source - God. I would argue that the confusion comes when we associate the SOURCE of the miracle of supernatural healing with any ONE other than God. By linking this wonderful power to the 'abilities' of a group of human beings seems to me to be an extraordinary attribution.
The fact that it is a 'gift' from God - that is 'spiritual' - supernatural - rather than 'material' - natural ... should, I think, draw our attention to the spiritual source - God who shares God's Spirit with us. Perhaps the events in which these 'miracles' occured were to be interpreted as such.
The text in Acts where the arrival of the Holy Spirit is recounted seems to make this clear in some way ... The disciples seem 'supernaturally' (without human effort or natural ability) to speak other languages. These languages are common, regional languages that make it able of all the Jews gathered to be able to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ in their own language. Natural human languages were the medium of communication, the source and the means of the 'extraordinary' ability to speak these foreign languages was considered to be "spiritual" - from God.
I think too often we transfer another kind of meaning to I Cor. in light of the practice of speaking in tongues and interpretation. I wonder if the practice was not such that one person spoke in another human language (without having the natural ability to do so), and there was no one there who actually could hear and understand what was said (in a natural human language), there was no interpretation - because no one could understand what was said. Again, the medium was natural and human, the source was spiritual and divine - God through the Holy Spirit.
God works in our natural realm to bless us ... I believe God uses both natural and supernatural means to do so. I think sometimes we get confused and think that we get 'lifted' mystically out of this natural realm into a quasi-middle-land (Tolkien plays with that idea, I think - correct me if I am wrong  ) .
God with us here ... working among us through God's Spirit ... in ordinary time and space - in extraordinary ways ... is a "God-thing", and I think it makes it less than that when we make it a matter of 'this' or 'that' in terms of individual abilities, spiritually or naturally ... Miracles are God-glorifying events - They are gifts ... 
Last edited by gay lynn voth on Nov 4, 2006; 8:30 pm; edited 1 time in total. |
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| Todd Moderator Joined Sep 9, 2004 1165 posts Location: Winnipeg |
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Posted Nov 4, 2006; 12:58 pm |
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Gay Lynn, I like your answer to that question. Especially, "Our bodies are also gifted with the ability to heal naturally ... It is part of the 'miracle' of creation, I would think".
I think it is good to keep in mind that the entire universe was supernaturally created from nothing, and that nature itself is a part of the supernatural. (I might also say that the supernatural is part of the natural, but that might be thinking too far outside the box, and stretching the definition of natural to include properties existing outside our universe, much like multiverse believing atheists would contend).
I'm trying to sort out between the right balance of emphasis between the natural and the supernatural. I'm somewhat skeptical of a lot of claims regarding the supernatural, though I recognize that God does act supernaturally in our age. I've seen many abuses amongst charismatics regarding their beliefs of the supernatural (including pretending there is supernatural intervention when none exists). I think experiencing supernatural intervention is exciting, but I think the Gospels are more about solving the problem of sin and unity with God than demonstrating supernatural wonders (unless supernatural intervention relates to the problem of sin and unity with Christ).
I think God often works in ways that we would classify as natural. Perhaps incorporating God's timeless nature into our thinking may help give us a glimpse of how this is possible. |
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| lornewel Member Joined May 11, 2004 571 posts Location: Abbotsford |
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Posted Nov 4, 2006; 1:55 pm |
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Does a skilled physician have the gift of healing, and is someone who quickly learns new languages gifted in tongues? In other words, how do these gifts connect with "natural" gifts?
Perhaps this question could have borne the "Loaded Question Alert" as well, for, as Sudsy points out, there are teachings on both sides of this question - or perhaps more than two sides.
Another reason the question is "loaded" is that in the English language we tend to use "gift" and "gifted" in more than one sense. Even those who, like Sudsy and me, believe that this passage in 1 Corinthians 12 is not talking about either innate or learned human abilities, use the word "gifted" to describe people with skill and ability in any field of human endeavour. We may say a person is a gifted athlete. In that sense, Hitler was a "gifted" leader.
God created man in his own image in the first instance, and, despite the fall which marred that image, humans can still do amazing things apart from being endowed with the Spirit. So in a general sense, all human lives are gifts from God and our human abilities are also gifts.
In verses 4 through 7, Paul uses four different words which I and other believers seem to often encapsulate in only the one word "gift." The teaching of this passage would quite probably be better understood if we refrained from that "simplification."
1. In verse 4 he uses "charisma" which is translated "gifts."
2. In verse 5, he uses "diakonia" which is translated "ministry" or "service." (or in KJV "administrations") This is the word from which we get "deacon" and is also the word used to describe Martha when she was "cumbered about much serving."
3. In verse 6, he uses "energema" translated "activities" or "operations," and it sure looks like our English word "energy."
4. But in verse 7, Paul seems to sum up the triple parallel of the previous 3 verses
- different gifts, same Spirit
- different mode of serving, same Lord
- different activities, same God
by using a fourth word "phanerosis" which is "manifestation." If we used that word "manifestation" instead of "gift" when we talk about this topic, it would not be so likely that anyone could confuse innate or learned human behaviour with a "manifestation of the Spirit." The idea of "manifestation" is making something invisible to be visible or plain.
When Peter and John encountered the crippled man in the temple Acts 3 it would not have mattered if they were chiefs of staff at the Mayo Clinic. Apart from a miraculous manifestation of God's power, they could not have lifted him up by the hand and sent him "walking and leaping and praising God." And surely the "praising God" part is the whole point of "manifestations" (my preferred term) of the Spirit. If Peter and John had made the man walk by their "own power" or skill, why would the people have marveled? (Acts 3:11-12) And they would surely not have been thrown in prison by the priests and Sadducees Acts 4 for exercising the skills of a physician to help a crippled man. Even the Sadducees, who do not believe in angels, spirits, or resurrection (see Acts 23:8) could not deny that a "notable miracle had been done (because) it was manifest to all who dwell in Jerusalem and (they could) not deny it." (Acts 4:16 KJV) What made it all the more amazing and undeniably a "God thing" is that Peter and John were clearly "ignorant and unlearned men." (Acts 4:13) It seems to me that Doctor Luke's account of this event, to which he devoted 2 chapters, is written in such a way as to purposely emphasize that manifestations of the Spirit are miraculous, supernatural and not to be confused with innate or learned human abilities ( notwithstanding that those are gifts of God also.)
On the day of Pentecost, all those who spoke in tongues were Galilaeans. They were heard by men "of every nation under heaven" speaking "the wonderful works of God" in "our own tongue wherein we were born." That is why they marvelled, were amazed and intrigued and listened to Peter give answer to their perplexed questions. Sure, it might have been interesting if somebody could demonstrate rapid language acquisition by some kind of Berlitzian giftedness, but it would not have caused crowds to come rushing together to hear Peter proclaim Jesus and have 3000 of the hearers saved in a day.
So my answer is that "natural" gifts and abilities and "manifestations of the Spirit" are two different things. Yes, they both come, in a sense, from God. And, yes, they may operate in conjunction with each other at times. It is my observation that God uses everything submitted to him for his own glory - our human abilities, education, finances as well as supernaturally and sovereignly imparted manifestations. He wastes nothing, especially our suffering and pain.
But it is also the case that the most danger of Him not getting the glory is in areas where we already humanly shine. That may be because others attribute the deeds to our own "power or goodness" or that we ourselves become (often very subtly) proud. Let me give an example very close to home. I love learning and I love teaching. I love language and understanding. I acquire foreign languages more easily than most people I know (though I wish I had applied that better.) I have been delighted to sit here for the past hour, going back and forth to different versions of scripture, concordances and so on, and writing this. I love it. I am glad my wife is at Women of Faith this weekend, so I have the freedom to spend this time without taking away from anything she wants us to be doing. On one hand, I believe God made me this way naturally. And this love of the word is useful to his body.
But a couple of times in my life I have had what I would say is a word of prophecy for somebody. It was nothing I thought up, nothing I studied, nothing I learned. And I did not enjoy it at the time. although afterwards I was amazed and thankful that God can use just anyone who will listen and obey to deliver a very specific supernaturally "downloaded" thing. I remember the first instance clearly. I can almost feel the sweaty palms and rapid heartbeat as I recall sitting in an evening service in the little church we attended then (over 20 years ago.) I was listening intently to the pastor preaching, as I always do because I naturally love words, remember. Suddenly, it came to me inside my head - like an intrusion - "I want you to go to John after the service and say..." Then I had a Samuel and Eli time. "Is that really you, Lord? I am scared I may be making this up. But why would I? Lord, could Satan be deceiving me to try to harm John? Oh Lord, if that was the enemy, please take the thought away. If it was you, please confirm it somehow. Will I be worthy of stoning if I speak and it's really not you?" But it just stayed with me and would not go away. I did not really hear the rest of the sermon, the closing hymn or prayer. I don't recall the exact words now as they did not mean anything in particular to me. It was something along the lines of, "I know what you are going through and it's going to be OK." After the service, my heart pounded louder and louder and my mouth was dry. People were leaving their pews. I slipped into the empty one behind John and his wife. They were standing chatting with someone. I waited for an opening and then said something like, "Ummm... excuse me, but I think the Lord wants me to say something to you." And then I said the exact words which had come to me. Instantly, they both burst out in tears, hugged each other and then me. They told me that was exactly what they needed to hear and thanked me for obeying. To this day I have no clue why they needed to hear that and to know that God was individually and specifically attending to their need. I have tears in my eyes even as I type this. I am so grateful we have a God who cares about us "little guys" not only enough to give his own son for us way back 2000 years ago, but also to specifically remind us in supernatural ways at times of his individual and detailed present watchfulness and provision. Now I did not love or enjoy that "manifestation."
I am glad the message I delivered was one the recipients wanted to hear. Imagine if I were like Jeremiah who had to always deliver bad news and people hated him and yet "But if I say, “I will not mention him or speak any more in his name,” his word is in my heart like a fire, a fire shut up in my bones. I am weary of holding it in; indeed, I cannot." Jer 20:9 By the time I had to deliver that message, I could not hold it in, but I am glad it was "good news."
I do not seek to get any more such messages. Such an experience causes me angst. It is outside my comfort zone. But it is also one where God alone gets the credit. I enjoy much more being able to help people by opening up scripture to apply to their situation, but in that I must be very careful, because it is so close to my own heart and interests, and I am aware that my personality is big on human acceptance and approval, so it is a danger zone.
That reminds me of Paul's account in 2 Corinthians 12 of being caught up to the heavens and getting wondrous revelations. In order to keep him from being conceited, he received a "thorn in the flesh - a messenger of Satan to buffet" him. He asked the Lord three times to take it away, but he was told rather that God's grace is sufficient and his strength made perfect in our weakness. So Paul learned to glory in weaknesses so that Christ would be exalted.
And that is the bottom line of this question. If we operate in our human skills and abilities, no matter how useful for serving -and we should - observers do not have to give God the glory and we ourselves may be tempted not to. But when the Spirit of God manifests supernaturally through us, even the "Sadduccees" cannot deny it and no credit goes to us "ignorant and unlearned men." |
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| Marshall Member Joined Feb 7, 2002 1202 posts Location: Langley, BC |
| Manifestations of the Spirit |
Posted Nov 4, 2006; 11:33 pm |
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Lorne, I really appreciated your summary of verses 4-7.
I didn't follow where you went from this summary, though. You seemed to limit manifestations of the Spirit to entirely supernatural events, though I see nothing about the different words used that suggests this. Why would gifts, ministry/service and activities/operations be only supernatural? Couldn't a trained staff person at the Mayo Clinic reveal God through their work with a patient? When the Amish demonstrate forgiveness to the surviving relatives of one who caused them great pain, aren't they also manifesting God's Spirit?
I agree that Acts 3-4 describes a miraculous healing. I don't think one needs to discount supernatural gifts to believe that God's Spirit also gives natural gifts to parts of the body of Christ.
| lornewel wrote: | | But it is also the case that the most danger of Him not getting the glory is in areas where we already humanly shine. That may be because others attribute the deeds to our own "power or goodness" or that we ourselves become (often very subtly) proud. |
I agree with what you've said here, but it leads me to nearly the opposite conclusion. There is indeed a critical danger in God not getting the glory for what we do with our natural abilities. The antidote to this pride is to see that these things too are good gifts from God's Spirit that we have been entrusted with, and we are accountable for how we use them to make God's kingdom manifest. I don't see how diminishing the connection between natural gifts and God can lessen the danger of pride in our abilities.
| Quote: | | And that is the bottom line of this question. If we operate in our human skills and abilities, no matter how useful for serving -and we should - observers do not have to give God the glory and we ourselves may be tempted not to. But when the Spirit of God manifests supernaturally through us, even the "Sadduccees" cannot deny it and no credit goes to us "ignorant and unlearned men." |
I don't think this difference exists. First, some who claim to have a supernatural gift of healing, prophecy or tongues also receive glory for it, and more glory because they claim it is supernatural, a sign that God is with them. Second, Jesus performed supernatural actions where the audience did not give God the glory. In Matthew 12:22-32, Jesus healed a demon-oppressed blind and mute man. The Pharisees, rather than praising God, attributed his action to demons. Unless one disbelieves in all supernatural powers apart from God (perhaps like the Sadducees), there is always an alternative to giving God the glory, even for miracles.
The way Jesus deals with the Pharisees' response works for both supernatural and natural manifestations of God's power. "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand." Both natural and supernatural actions that serve God's kingdom cannot have their source in demons. Both types of actions are ultimately of God and for God (even if unwittingly). This is why Jesus sees these actions as done to himself (Matthew 25:31-46), and has prepared such works for us to do (Ephesians 2:10). |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2927 posts |
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Posted Nov 5, 2006; 8:32 pm |
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| Quote: | | Both natural and supernatural actions that serve God's kingdom cannot have their source in demons |
Just a thought on this - Jesus said many in that day will elude to serving God's kingdom in that they spoke of doing miracles and other supernatural things and He will not recognize them as being His children. They probably may have fooled some of those who are His children. Not everything that appears to be for God is and IMO there could be a great deal today both from natural abilities and the supernatural from some other spirit that only appears to be according to God's will.
I believe a truly Spirit filled and Spirit led person will not take any glory for what God does through them. They are not concerned with being recognized as their motive and delight is to do God's will. The carnal Christian is all taken up with self recognition. Paul said he had lots to boast about as far as natural credentials are concerned but he counted these as garbage. Even Jesus said He could do nothing without God's power flowing through Him and that is the same for us. Today, IMO, we can negate this power flowing through us by having a form of godliness (looks and sounds correct) but it denies this power from actually being active in us. My daily challenge is continuing to recognize my own poverty of spirit and allowing God to live His life in and through me in the the riches of His kingdom of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Living in this realm of rule, He provides the Spiritual gifts through the Holy Spirit as He sees fit for the benefit of all. |
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| Marshall Member Joined Feb 7, 2002 1202 posts Location: Langley, BC |
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Posted Nov 5, 2006; 8:58 pm |
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| Sudsy wrote: | | Just a thought on this - Jesus said many in that day will elude to serving God's kingdom in that they spoke of doing miracles and other supernatural things and He will not recognize them as being His children. They probably may have fooled some of those who are His children. Not everything that appears to be for God is and IMO there could be a great deal today both from natural abilities and the supernatural from some other spirit that only appears to be according to God's will. |
Agreed.
| Quote: | | Paul said he had lots to boast about as far as natural credentials are concerned but he counted these as garbage. |
Edit: Instead of being redundant, I'll just link to this post from the last time we discussed this. The last part of the post is about this same issue. |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2927 posts |
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Posted Nov 6, 2006; 3:17 pm |
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OK, I'll withdraw my example of what Paul said. I believe although Christ lives within us, we can still chose to operate in our own strength and this will always result in nothing of eternal significance being achieved. Regardless of our background, denomination, schooling, personality, position in life, etc., it is only through reliance on the power of God within us that spiritual fruit is produced.
When we rely on God only, I believe He will provide us with whatever gifts are required to do His will and this could be a temporary gift for a specific occasion. For example, since this scripture indicates there are gifts of healing, I believe it would be OK to earnestly desire and ask God for a gift of healing for a certain occasion. If we are not asking according to His will, scripture says He does not hear us. If He hears us, then we will have what we ask for. However, we are also told in James that we must ask in faith with nothing wavering.
So, have you ever heard of anyone asking God for a gift of healing ? I can't recall hearing anyone pray this. What do other forum members believe about this and how the Holy Spirit gives out these gifts ? |
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