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| Radames Member Joined Feb 17, 2006 384 posts Location: Surrey |
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Posted Oct 24, 2007; 1:33 pm |
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| Quote: | I believe there is another, most important factor required and that is the work of the Holy Spirit who guides us to the truth.
Sudsy
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Hi Sudsy,
Yes, I completely agree that the Holy Spirit is necessary for understanding the Bible correctly.
1 Cor 12:8
8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
Without the Holy Spirit we are blind. Thanks be to God, when we are saved, we begin to see!
John 9:39
39Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."
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For instance, I noticed in a previous post that you believe in tithing and that it is applicable for today. It would appear in what Jesus said to the Pharisees one could say it still applies. However, in 2 Cor. 9:6-7 it does not suggest a set amount but rather that we should give from our heart and in another place 1 Cor. 16:2 that we should give a 'sum of money in keeping with his income'. So, how does this method determine that tithing is for today and if it is, a tenth of what ?
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I think there is a difference between what we SHOULD give, and what we MUST give. Jesus said "You should have practiced the latter", namely tithing (10% likely of gross income). Since tithing is a percentage, not a fixed amount, it is 'in keeping with his income'. 'Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give' -- so tithing unwillingly probably does not receive a reward. This also allows for giving beyond a tithe. Above all, the tithe is for our benefit, not God's (for our own spiritutal self-improvement). I do not see any contradiction in these verses -- they complement each other and are all necessary for a full understanding of NT giving.
Mal 3:10
Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it."
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I personally am not convinced tha anyone has the perfect approach to determine all the truths of scripture and I believe God reveals what we need to know not always what we might want to know.
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I think that is why church as a community of people is so important for us. Each individual member may only have certain pieces of the puzzle. Stick everyone together in a church, with a willingness to learn from each other and especially from the elders of the church, and the wisdom we can draw from is very great!
Radames |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2927 posts |
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Posted Oct 24, 2007; 3:00 pm |
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Thanks Radames. So, I can accept your view that these scriptures on tithing are compatible and if that is how you are convicted to believe, you should obey.
However, many other scholars don't see it that way and they can present their interpretation of these scriptures. If historically we see what the tithe was used for, in our culture, some of this is covered by the taxes we pay so tithing on 'gross pay' also is suspect. Additionally, if we look into the giving practises in the OT the amounts given are thought by some to exceed 30%. IMO, God looks on our hearts and not so much on the amount.
Does it seem correct that a person can live in luxury who has money because 10% of gross doesn't put a dent in their life style while 10% for a poor person is a big chunk of change ? I think what we keep back for ourselves to live on and where we use it reflects more of where our treasure is. With that said, I do feel ashamed at what I keep for myself and at times, where I spend it.
I was raised a 10% of net tither and find myself checking to see my giving is greater than that when income tax time rolls around. I'm not one who gives what is left over after my lifestyle is paid for. But my point is that there is still personal opinions that get involved in interpreting what should be given.
However, regardless, I really agree that God pours out blessing on those who give generously, voluntarily and cheerfully. My parents did not keep much back for themselves and God blessed them in many, many ways. He has blessed me too far more than I could ever deserve.
Well, back to the topic. What was it again ?  O yes, being impacted by sermons in our churches. |
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| Oldman New member Joined Oct 16, 2007 4 posts |
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Posted Oct 24, 2007; 4:39 pm |
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Interesting comments on preaching, teaching and Biblical exposition. My understanding of these topics could best be described, all of the above. We cannot understand the scriptures without the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, that’s a given. Paul writes the following to the Corinthians:
Corinthians 2:14
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” KJV or, “But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means.” NLT Nevertheless, we can only know if our thoughts/understanding of scripture is of the Holy Spirit if it matches up with the Bible (sola scriptura). As we’re finite it would be presumptuous to say we understand it all fully. “We all see as through a glass darkly” 1 Corinthians 13:12 “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face.”KJV The purposes of attending church and listening to preaching is to hear what God may be saying through the Holy Spirit filled preacher expositing the Bible, the inspired Word of God. That’s why I really prefer expositional preaching. “Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.” Romans 10:17 KJV. Topical preaching, is listening to another person’s thoughts may be interesting and at times entertaining, and may be Holy Spirit inspired too based on scripture, they often are not, although as already said, they may be. The question then arises how do we know? The answer to me is; check the scriptures to see if they are from God or not. Luke describes the Berean Christians like this: Acts 17:11 “Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.” The Berean Christians had only the Old Testament to check, we fortunately have both the OT and the NT. We too need to check what the preacher is saying with the Bible (sola scriptura). This is equally true when I read books or watch movies. The Bible, also called the Canon of Scripture, (Canon means straight line or measuring stick, or, a standard or criterion) always has the final say. Because the Bible is written by men as inspired by the Holy Spirit it is the only final Word. (Sola Scriptura)
Because hearing our pastor preach will usually occur about once a week, we also need to read and study the Bible ourselves to hear what God is saying to us directly from the Book, again through the Holy Spirit’s enlightening of our mind. In order to know that these messages are of the Holy Spirit, and not day-dreaming, or worse hallucinations, we again need to compare these thoughts with scripture interpreting scripture. God the Holy Spirit will not disagree with the written Word of God. Disagreements occur because we are finite beings with finite minds trying to comprehend infinite truth. Because of this we need to be tolerant of each other’s views and diligently search the Scriptures (sola Scriptura) to find Devine Truth. (I heard a fine Biblical scholar say if we get it right half the time we’re average). IF we choose which scriptures we will pick to believe and not believe we become heretical, the term heresy comes from the Greek meaning “to choose.” And if we propagate unscriptural chosen views we thereby become heretics. All cults begin this way. In Biblical times a famous heretical cult were the Gnostics.
Disagreeing over different interpretations of some scriptures wouldn’t fall into this discussion. However, in the essentials surely this is true. The MB statement of faith would fall into the essentials. Not inspired as scripture is but essentially accurate doctrinally humanly speaking. If I cannot agree with it then the ethical thing to do would be to find another conference with which I can agree.
Lastly, the tithe.
In 2 Corinthians 8:6-8 the apostle Paul writes: “So we have urged Titus, who encouraged your giving in the first place, to return to you and encourage you to finish this ministry of giving. 7 Since you excel in so many ways in your faith, your gifted speakers, your knowledge, your enthusiasm, and your love from us I want you to excel also in this gracious act of giving. 8 I am not commanding you to do this. But I am testing how genuine your love is by comparing it with the eagerness of the other churches. NLT
Luke 12:33,34 “Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” NIV
The tithe, I use this word loosely as the question was already asked, 10% of what. It might be better described as giving. Generally speaking my personal view of giving is: “give till it hurts.” This may be for some much more than 10% of taxable income, for others this may be the “widow’s mite.” As a rule of thumb, give to the point where you are unable to buy something, or, go somewhere, because you’ve given that money to God. Give it regularly and give it first. Although tithing as in the Old Testament as such, is not in the New Testament, giving generously to God’s work certainly is. Although I don’t believe the “health and wealth” teaching of some today, I do believe God does bless, those of His people who are obedient to Him, and that includes their money. Obviously, this is not a given in neither health nor wealth. There are many faithful believers who are not healthy or wealthy. Nevertheless, the very least would be, that a relationship with Jesus leads one to live a moderate, conservative life style which leaves more money after the essentials are purchased, than someone spending his income primarily for personal pleasure. This allows for more giving.
In summary, the principle of Luke 12:34 trumps all other arguments regarding “tithing,” “For where you treasure is, there your heart will be also.” If your treasure is in heaven you’ll send your money on ahead, I guarantee you’ll not take it, nor toys purchased with it physically with you when you die and last I heard the death rate is till 100%. |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2927 posts |
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Posted Oct 25, 2007; 7:05 am |
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Regarding the study of the scriptures one with another to verify what the Holy Spirit is saying to us - for most of the centuries in the A.D. time frame, the average person did not have access to the written scriptures. I think it highly likely that even the Bereans did not have a personal copy of the OT and we don't really know if they just checked out a copy to see if what was quoted was trully what was in it or if they actually did some digging to see if what was preached checked out checking scripture against scripture. So, for most of the NT era, the average person did not have access to match scripture with scripture and had to trust what the clergy determined was truth.
However, I do agree that since we have our own copies, the Holy Spirit can and does verify what He is guiding us to believe as truth through various scriptures. When people did not have their own copies, there were other means the Holy Spirit used to reveal truths and I believe He still does this today.
But I believe we need to become very familiar with what the Bible says and to memorize and meditate on it. My experience is normally that when God speaks to me, the Holy Spirit often brings scriptures to my remembrance and points out what this means for my life. If I am unsure that it is God speaking, then I believe God can and does verify what He is saying to my heart as I read the scriptures and other times through circumstances.
Regarding giving (tithing) - I wonder how responsible we are as good stewards to ensure that the 'storehouse' is using the gifts to further God's Kingdom rather than making things comfortable for those already part of that Kingdom. In our culture, it seems to me, the bulk of giving goes towards niceties in church settings for ourselves and little for those outside the church doors. I agree that sacrificial giving is important and I don't do enough of it but is it really sacrificial if it ends up giving us super comfortable church settings, meals, etc. ? Perhaps we should be keeping the 10% for our own needs and give the 90% to those that are really furthering God's Kingdom, such as some missionaries.
One other thought on giving - although God promises blessings on our giving, we don't give to get. I think this is where some of the prosperity teaching goes wrong. God knows our hearts and if we give to get we are being motivated by our own selfish desires and not as disinterested benevolence.
I am enjoying all the input to the forum lately, even if we wander around a bit under a single thread. Thanks, everyone. |
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| Radames Member Joined Feb 17, 2006 384 posts Location: Surrey |
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Posted Oct 25, 2007; 9:05 am |
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| Quote: | So, for most of the NT era, the average person did not have access to match scripture with scripture and had to trust what the clergy determined was truth.
Sudsy
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I think one way that the Holy Spirit acts in our lives is through our consciences.
Romans 2:14
14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
Yet we have the warning:
1 Cor 4:4
4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.
Jesus affirms that all that is necessary for eternal life is:
Luke 10:27
27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" 28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
One of the great things about the Reformation was to bring the Bible into the common languages. Luther's greatest contribution was probably translating the Bible into German. I find it hard to imagine life without knowledge of the Bible -- with mass in Latin, and priests that often did not know the Bible either.
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In our culture, it seems to me, the bulk of giving goes towards niceties in church settings for ourselves and little for those outside the church doors. |
This bothers me too sometimes. I would prefer less technology and more personal involvement (that said, I have listened to sermons online a number of times and it is quite useful). However, I have to assume that the elders of the church weigh these issues before deciding how to spend the money. There is also a lot of prayer that goes into the elder's decisions at our church. Lastly, we are primarily called to out-reach in the community where we are placed. While spending $10 million on a church may seem excessive, a large church will cost that much because the land alone could cost $7 million. Either we would need a radical shift towards smaller house churches (or putting churches into other venues like secular theatres), or a large part of charitable giving to the church will probably end up in buildings.
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Perhaps we should be keeping the 10% for our own needs and give the 90% to those that are really furthering God's Kingdom, such as some missionaries. |
My view is that the church should wholly fund all the missionaries that it raises. If God puts a burden on 50% of the congregation to be missionaries, then by all means sell the church and fund the missions! I am not sure what proportion of the average church is called to missions, but at my church it only seems to be perhaps 2-4% that are regularly called, and probably only 1-2% that are long-term missionaries. We cannot go if we are not called, so either a lot of people are not listening to God, or God wants people to evangelize in the lower mainland!
Radames |
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