 |
|
| Author |
Message |
| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2833 posts |
 Do you believe in miracles or God? |
Posted Nov 18, 2008; 9:36 am |
|
I enjoyed this article and especially was interested in how we should be praying for God to intervene miraculously.
What I hear quite often today is a request for prayer that a doctor (believer or unbeliever) is guided by God to diagnose and/or use his/her talents to restore someone to health. Years ago I recall requests for prayer to be more geared to God actually doing a miraculous healing that would even cause the doctors to admit that it was a miracle.
It would sound to me that we have deducted that God primarily works today more through the skills of man than He does through unexplained miracles. Yet, when I think about it, if we are praying for God to guide, even a non-believing doctor, to do exactly the right actions, then would this not be as miraculous as God fixing the problem without a doctor doing a thing ?
So, I wonder if we should be getting into how God is to heal. Why not just pray for healing but pray first and foremost that God's will be accomplished. Perhaps it is not God's will to heal in this situation. In our prayers we can affirm our belief that God is a God of the miraculous and nothing is impossible with Him but more than anything else we submit to His will and purposes and we will trust Him with the outcome. We can pray for strength and comfort during this time that tests the sick person and our faith and trust. But I'm not sure about telling God how to do something is appropriate.
I would be glad to hear from others on this. |
|
|
|
| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
| Re: Do you believe in miracles or God? |
Posted Nov 18, 2008; 10:18 pm |
|
I agree, Sudsy.
| Quote: | "So, I wonder if we should be getting into how God is to heal. Why not just pray for healing but pray first and foremost that God's will be accomplished. Perhaps it is not God's will to heal in this situation. In our prayers we can affirm our belief that God is a God of the miraculous and nothing is impossible with Him but more than anything else we submit to His will and purposes and we will trust Him with the outcome. We can pray for strength and comfort during this time that tests the sick person and our faith and trust. But I'm not sure about telling God how to do something is appropriate.
I would be glad to hear from others on this. |
In terms of asking God - I've taken the stance that I pray asking God to heal or to do something... and I ask for the outcome that I want. and in so doing I recognize that thinks are outside my control - we don't 'boss' God around. And i don't think that after every prayer I have to tack on 'if it be your will' |
|
|
|
| McDLT Moderator Joined May 14, 2004 1451 posts Location: Toronto |
| |
Posted Nov 19, 2008; 9:26 am |
|
Just a quick thought (have to get going, but wanted to add this comment)
I think God has always worked through man. The prophets, the apostles, Jesus, and me. I haven't seen in my life where God directly contacted me; it's always been through something.
Hopefully I'll have time to elaborate more later. |
|
|
|
| Iquestion Member Joined Jan 29, 2009 34 posts |
| |
Posted Feb 11, 2009; 1:36 pm |
|
| Not sure if this is the right section for this or not.... I'm thinking that prayer and miracles are a redistribution of God's blessings amongst Christians. Since God wants us to believe in Him through faith, it only stands to reason that Christians won't receive blessings beyond what any other person would receive, otherwise a study could be conducted which would prove that prayer helps and therefore God exists beyond any doubt. Using this logic, it only stands to reason that if I have my prayer requests granted to me, there is another Christian somewhere in the world who gets "short changed" for my good fortune in order to equalize matters. Any thoughts? |
|
|
|
| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2833 posts |
| |
Posted Feb 12, 2009; 5:17 pm |
|
Iquestion posted - | Quote: | | I'm thinking that prayer and miracles are a redistribution of God's blessings amongst Christians |
.
Do you have a scriptural base for this reasoning ?
I believe scripture points out that our prayers are answered as desired upon condition that we are in sync with what God intends to do. We can ask for things outside of God's will and as a loving Father, He will not grant these requests. I don't think God is into 'equalizing matters' but rather He will always do what is best for each of us to allow His purposes to be worked out in our lives. This may appear to us to be favouring one person over another but we do not see the big picture and what God is intending for our good. It may appear that God is short changing us at one moment and granting us good fortune at another but regardless of how this may appear to be a 'giving' and a 'taking away', we can trust that God is always working things out for our ultimate good.
Other thoughts ? Disagreements ? |
|
|
|
| Iquestion Member Joined Jan 29, 2009 34 posts |
| |
Posted Feb 12, 2009; 8:59 pm |
|
| I believe it's irrelevant whether or not there is scriptural reference to what I am saying, but it does come to mind that it "rains upon the fields of the just and the unjust", which of course implies just what it says. The point I am trying to make though is that logic dictates that, unless God wants man to be able to prove His existence, He cannot give special treatment to Christians, whether it be through materialistic blessings, or others such as health, relationships, etc. Do you or anyone else believe that our praying does help? For the record, I do pray daily, and am not attempting to undermine anything written on this site. I'll also state that I'm an MB at least for a while yet, but am confused about many matters. Any more thoughts are certainly appreciated! |
|
|
|
| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
| |
Posted Feb 12, 2009; 9:38 pm |
|
| Iquestion wrote: | | I believe it's irrelevant whether or not there is scriptural reference to what I am saying, but it does come to mind that it "rains upon the fields of the just and the unjust", which of course implies just what it says. The point I am trying to make though is that logic dictates that, unless God wants man to be able to prove His existence, He cannot give special treatment to Christians, whether it be through materialistic blessings, or others such as health, relationships, etc. Do you or anyone else believe that our praying does help? For the record, I do pray daily, and am not attempting to undermine anything written on this site. I'll also state that I'm an MB at least for a while yet, but am confused about many matters. Any more thoughts are certainly appreciated! |
welcome to the MB Forum Iquestion
i trust you will find this a safe place to 'kick the tires' you've put up some interesting ideas. i'm sure if you hang around forum members will engage with you.
the forum can be quiet - we all seem to have busy lives. so don't take a break in answers as a put down. [having said that, the Forum seems to have picked up lately. it seems to run in spurts]
i'm in the middle of a busy streak - so here are some random thoughts to throw out.
i wouldn't say i understand prayer - its a mystery.
about God and what he does so people may or may not prove his existance - my gut tells me God doesn't set things up (re a system of blessings or withholding blessings to Xtians) to either prove or disprove his exsistnece. the biblical materials assume the existence of a Creator. i think its more about our response to the Creator who comes to us in Jesus .....
anyway i'm at the end of a busy day, and my brain is fuzzier than usual
blessings and welcome |
|
|
|
| lornewel Member Joined May 11, 2004 553 posts Location: Abbotsford |
| |
Posted Feb 13, 2009; 9:26 am |
|
The God portrayed in the Bible does not seem to be inclined to "prove" his existence in the way we mean in our Western logic. Instead he says that anyone who comes to him must believe and that without faith it is impossible to please him. Heb 11:6
On the other hand, to those who do not push away the evidence, there has always been plenty of evidence for his power and existence. See Romans 1:17-23
Last edited by lornewel on Feb 15, 2009; 2:06 pm; edited 1 time in total. |
|
|
|
| Iquestion Member Joined Jan 29, 2009 34 posts |
| |
Posted Feb 13, 2009; 2:03 pm |
|
Thanks Wescoast and lornewel, I appreciate your responses. I've so far noticed though that on this website, many people attempt to answer questions using scripture, which reminds me of Sunday school.... which is why I quit attending..... Any time I had a difficult question, possibly controversial, the teacher would quickly quote some verse in Galations or wherever to come up with a quick answer (basically sluff off the question), and eagerly return to the textbook lesson of the week. Anyone can look up passages in the Bible to get answers, it does not take thinking to do such, but these answers often times do not address the REAL questions some of us have.
Does prayer help? I'm interested in what others on this site believe themselves... Do you truly believe that you are better off, either spiritually, mentally, health wise, etc etc by praying?? Yes, no, or not sure. |
|
|
|
| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
| |
Posted Feb 13, 2009; 7:38 pm |
|
Iquestion
Regarding using bible verses in our answers.
in our responses, I didn't use a bible verse and Lorne did. i think both of our answers kind of said the same thing - in different ways. did referring to the bible make Lorne's ans better/worse than mine? did my not doing so make it better/worse? [these are retorical question] two different styles.
My guess is u will find diff people on the Forum with various approaches (just like in real life).
Avoiding difficult questions or thinking a difficult question has been answered by merely quoting bible verses is something which bothers me also.
it happens here - or appears to from time to time. however, when posting online its easy to misunderstand, etc. and imo its best to ask for clarification. rather than write the other poster off.
To your questions regarding prayer.
And to be very clear we could perhaps derfine things even more clearly. By prayer can we assume this: your question is asked within the context of Christian prayer offered to the God who reveals himself within the Bible, supremely in Jesus? I assume this is the context.  Its good to lay out what we are talking about.
yes, I'd say prayer helps me - it seems like one of the ways i stay connected to God
edited once to clean up some lousy grammar
Last edited by westcoast frame of mind on Feb 14, 2009; 11:35 am; edited 1 time in total. |
|
|
|
| Neto Member Joined Feb 2, 2005 254 posts Location: Holmes County, Ohio |
| |
Posted Feb 14, 2009; 7:08 am |
|
The way I take Sudsy's original question is whether we place our confidence (when praying in perhaps a "hopeless" situation) in a belief in miracles, or in our belief in God. Understood that way, I would definitely say that if we place our confidence in a belief in miracles specifically, then we have misplaced our faith. Jesus refused to do signs and wonders to incite belief. Miracles are an outworking, or result of our faith in God. Not always the result we want to see, no. Did the Biblical writers experience any different? No. Read the prophets, how they cry out their complaints to God: "Why do You do so and so?" (Habakkuk, for instance.) Does God mind these questions of his purpose and performance? Not that I can see. I think he appreciates the conversation.
Seeing blessings as a redistribution of God's influence is, however, a different thing. My comments here will probably not be appreciated, because I am a Biblicist - I will tell you up front that I believe the Bible is God's message to us. Am I saying he does not communicate still? No, I am not. I also grew up in Sunday School, and though I am not presently teaching an adult class, I also do not like to give pat answers, and I don't like to ask the same questions they did in children's classes. But the scriptural answers are where we must began. No, not all of our questions are answered in the Scripture. Why did a young man who was very important to my daughter, his parents (of course), and to me as well die 18 months ago? I have asked God why - he has not told me. I still ask why - he still responds with love and understanding. Did he die because someone else was blessed, spared, somewhere else in the world? That idea is utterly unbiblical. It treats God's blessing as if it were a natural resource, like water. Limited. I haven't quoted from any Bible verses here, but if we do not use the Scripture as our authority for faith and practice, then we are adrift in the murky sea of human philosophy. I doubt if I am such a good writer here that I have convinced anyone of anything, so maybe I just wasted my time posting this..... |
|
|
|
| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
| |
Posted Feb 14, 2009; 12:02 pm |
|
hi Neto,
i appreciated your post - i don't think it was a waste of time - thanks for sharing what must have been a mindboggling painful experience.
just out of curiousity - would you mind explaining a bit more about what you mean by being a 'biblicist' |
|
|
|
| Iquestion Member Joined Jan 29, 2009 34 posts |
| |
Posted Feb 14, 2009; 7:54 pm |
|
To Neto, I don't believe your answer was a waste of time at all. However, I must disagree with you on the part of miracles. The first four books of the New Testament are completely filled with miracles, including the greatest one... the resurrection. Do you really think the disciples would have put themselves in harm's way had they not seen actual signs?
As for the reason why the wonderful young man was taken from your friends, the answer is simple. It happened. I can get a disease and die, I can get in a car accident and die. If young people were immune to death, this in itself would be one of these "signs" that God exists, because people could throw their children off of cliffs and they would still be alive. There does not have to be a reason a person dies on this earth. The laws of physics and probability apply. If God decides that Christians should die later, here we go again with exactly what I've been saying all along.... there is no difference in what we receive in terms of blessings as compared to non Christians.
I'm just a bit confused as to the remark you made about Sunday school.... are you implying that issues/questions such as the one I'm debating are questions children ask and aren't meant to be discussed, and that only the text message matters? Where does one then go with questions? Can't very well stand up during the sermon and say "hey pastor...." 
thanks again for your reply! |
|
|
|
| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
| |
Posted Feb 14, 2009; 11:55 pm |
|
Iquestion,
I think i may understand where u are coming from ... are u saying because a person chooses to follow Jesus they should have or expect an easier life than those who don't follow Jesus? ie. blessings (thats what the 'prosperity gospel teaches).
actually, Jesus appears to make no such promises - he talks about crosses and persecution. there are no gaurantees of an easy ride.
like Forrest Gump said, __it happens. From our perspective things appear quite random. perhaps you could post a bit more about what you are questioning - specially if I have totally misunderstood you. |
|
|
|
| roadrunning Member Joined May 9, 2008 315 posts |
| miracles without God |
Posted Feb 15, 2009; 1:34 pm |
|
Scripture seems to indicate that we can believe in miracles RATHER than God and that would be a problem. Acts 9 tells the story of Simon who practiced 'magic' and claimed to be great. Another time Paul was worshipped as a god because of the miracles he performed (Acts 28). Both seemed to be problematic and interfered with people believing in God.
What is disheartening is when people expect God to perform certain miracles and when the miracles don't happen, they become disappointed in God. I think one can believe in BOTH miracles and God ... medicine AND prayer ... etc. without replacing one with the other. |
|
|
|
|
|
