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| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
 Parsing the Kingdom |
Posted May 18, 2009; 9:22 am |
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The OT tells me God is in control. The NT tells me Jesus is Lord. Colossians has a whole lot to say about the supremacy of the risen Christ who broke into human history and inaugurated his Kingdom. I struggle understanding where the god of this world: Satan fits into this. That being said, I completely believe in the pervasive insidious power of evil in people and as a malignant force in the world.
I agree with both James, Sudsy: Christians the Church are “Kingdom people.” My thoughts run more in the direction of musing about the work of the Church scattered rather than gathered – or the work of the individual Christian in the real stuff of life rather than through the church’s institutional efforts. [we as modern Christians spend way more time in our ‘individual’ pursuits than in corporate efforts].
Example: my daughter works for the BC Cancer Agency – she chose this work because she wanted to make a ‘difference’ in the world helping others. IMO she is one of the most gentle, loving, Christ-like people I know [I am always amazed that I had anything to do helping to raise her]. What she does in interaction with patients, doctors, nurses is based on Christian commitment – Kingdom ethics/work if you will. The staff person working next to her may be motivated by similar desires (albeit without the Christian worldview/focus) or may be strictly there for the salary. If we believe God wants to bring healing and wholeness, wants people to be treated with dignity and respect – both my daughter and her co-worker are fulfilling God’s will – in that moment God’s rule is being established.
Is my daughter’s involvement not ‘Kingdom work’?
Is her co-worker also, in a sense, also in line with God’s will [in the sense of helping to bring peace/wholeness]? Notice my intentional use of words – I’m not calling the coworker’s involvement ‘Kingdom’ work but am saying it is in keeping with God’s will/overall purposes.
So look for what God is doing in the world, celebrate and support it. We need to have a broader view of the lives/work of individuals in the real world. |
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| James Toews Member Joined Mar 31, 2006 409 posts |
| The Body |
Posted May 18, 2009; 11:11 am |
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Hi WCFOM
God is in control- Amen. Satan is alive and well- true enough. We are Kingdom people with assignments to proclaim that Kingdom and do the work of our Master. I take these as statements of Biblical fact. It is kind of fun and even useful to try to connect all the dots between these “facts”- but the Anabaptist epistemology directs us to be quite cautious about the conclusions we draw from our linkages [that’s what theology is- Reformed theology IMO is particularly focused on creating a Grand Unifying Theory and lining all the ducks in neat rows] and always go back to the facts [the Scriptures].
On what Kingdom work is- I’m sitting here on a beautiful May Day Monday doing books. [I’m doing them now because I spent time on more pleasurable pursuits such as golfing, reading and posting on the Forum :) ]
Is that Kingdom work? This is far less exciting than preparing a sermon or doing a prison minsitry service- but if I don’t do the books neither of those 2 worthy things will happen either because the Tax Man will seize my assets and put me in jail :)
The question is rhetorical- doing books is no less important than either of the other 2- but does that make it Kingdom work? It is simply a necessary and important part of life in this place and time. IMO the importance, worthiness and even necessity of a task is not what defines it as Kingdom work. Kingdom work is what the Kingdom agency on earth- the church- does.
Sudsy
IMO when it comes to practical Christianity 1 Cor 12 is a controlling metaphor. The church is a body and we are all members of it.
-Each of us has a gift.
-God has placed those gifts together.
-The “fact” is- we the members of the body have an absurd inclination to disconnect from the body and to despise either the gifts of others or our own.
-When this happens both the individual member and the body suffers fundamental damage.
-According to this metaphor the effective Kingdom work of the body is based on 2 things-
1. The individual member being connected to the body in healthy ways
2. The access of the Holy Spirit to the individual member
The second challenge is a profoundly individual one because that access takes place in the invisible recesses of our individual hearts.
The first challenge is corporate- if we remain connected in healthy ways- the body will do its work even though the individual members may well have very little sense of the big picture [what, after all, do my kidneys care if I do taxes or write a sermon today?]
To me, it seems that there is hardly anything more “practically” important than the work of keeping the connections between the diverse parts of the body. |
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| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
| Brother Lawrence - picking up that piece of straw. |
Posted May 18, 2009; 11:25 am |
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| James Toews wrote: | | Kingdom work is what the Kingdom agency on earth- the church- does.. |
I'm not sure if you answered my question: Is what my daughter does at the Cancer Agency Kingdom work - she is a part of the Church - and she is doing God's will. I have pretty much gone away trying to sort out what is Kingdom work and what isn't ......
I am not directing the following statement to you But the stuff i hear on Sundays tends to equate work of the church i.e. corporate or perhaps 'witnessing' as what is really important ........ and then we get that greek gnostic dycotomy thing going ...........
Go play golf as part of your kingdom mandate........ I'm going to wash out the garage......  |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2916 posts |
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Posted May 18, 2009; 5:58 pm |
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My wife and I also just returned from our golf game and the weather was quite nice. I got laughing to myself on the course as I recalled yesterday's sermon. I know this is off topic but our pastor used a prop I had never seen used before and I am wondering just how all the saints responded. I heard some chuckles but also seen some heads drop. Makes me laugh just recalling it. Right in the middle of his sermon he was talking about how we, Christians are sometimes like tea bags, it takes hot water to bring out the best in us. Then, all of a sudden he pointed to the sound booth and the rock music began with that song 'the heat is on' and he began dancing to the music. Pretty good moves, too. Whew, dancing in a Mennonite church and not even to Gospel music !  Sorry, it struct me funny. One reason it hit me funny is that there is one fellow in our church who stays in the corridor until the music is over and then comes in for the sermon as he is not a fan of today's worship music.
I probably shouldn't be thinking this is so funny, especially if it affects some believer's sensitivities so feel free to reprimand me. It was so unique I just had to share it.
Now, getting back to the topic, if I can,  , I agree that high regard for the body and keeping connected is very important. I was reading this very practical portion of scripture the other day that I think we can apply to any church's community conduct. What great words of exhortation - 1 Thessalonians 5:12-24.
Also, here are some interesting thoughts on the kingdom, although I think we have discussed this on another thread awhile back - http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/kingdom_god.html |
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| roadrunning Member Joined May 9, 2008 320 posts |
| some thoughts on the kingdom of heaven |
Posted May 18, 2009; 6:42 pm |
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Hi James,
I was wondering what you think about the kingdom of heaven imagery used in Matthew 13 - seed, weeds, mustard plant and yeast?
Hi WCFOM,
I, for one, would think that your daughter is involved in kingdom of heaven work. Chatted with my neighbor briefly this morning only to find out that both of our spouses were diagnosed with cancer two weeks ago. Families in need will benefit from the care and attention your daughter (and many others involved in that line of work) can provide.  |
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| James Toews Member Joined Mar 31, 2006 409 posts |
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Posted May 18, 2009; 9:20 pm |
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Seems to me, Roadrunning, that the Matthew 13 parables are consistent with both a narrow and broad understandings of the Kingdom of God. In fact I referenced the mustard tree parable as possibly supporting my understanding. Frankly, however, I don’t think that this text, without another prior presupposition or 2, supports either view.
Given 1 Corinthians 12 description of the work of the Holy Spirit in the church however, do you see any Biblical inconsistency in my statement that the church is the only unequivocal expression of the Kingdom of God? |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2916 posts |
| His Kingdom / His Will |
Posted May 19, 2009; 6:32 am |
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| I think of Kingdom work as whatever is going on according to the will of God. 'Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.' I believe God's will sometimes allow various forms of suffering to happen for His greater purposes. I believe our challenge is to trust Him and believe that He has purposes that we may never understand in this life. Above all else we desire and seek His Kingdom and His righteousness. As Kingdom citizens we should reflect a submission to His will and rejoice in knowing that He is working all things out for the greater good. I think this is what Paul and Silas demonstrated when they were in prison. Regardless of circumstances, the Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Romans 14:17-19. |
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| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
| Pulling some strands together |
Posted May 19, 2009; 8:37 am |
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can we live with the following statements?
1. The ‘Kingdom of God’ is linked to ‘Jesus is Lord’ [these are compressed theologial 'shorthand' statements]
2. Those who confess Jesus as Lord are citizens of the Kingdom
3. Kingdom citizens, as individuals in their vocations, at their leisure and corporately in their lives together, are representatives of their King. They are in the Kingdom - involved in Kingdom. Perhaps speaking of ‘Kingdom work’ pushes us into false distinctions.
4. Those who are not in the Kingdom who do not claim Jesus as Lord bear the image of their Creator. Hense we rejoice in the good we see.
5. God’s Spirit - blowing where he will - is actively at work in and through the people of the world and its systems [HA's excepted ] Joke aside: God is in control |
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| James Toews Member Joined Mar 31, 2006 409 posts |
| Amen and Amen |
Posted May 19, 2009; 12:24 pm |
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Not only can I live with your "strands" WCFOM and your appeal to the Lord's Prayer, Sudsy- I feel compelled to respond with a hearty, Amen!
BTW heard a great sermon last night. My grandson and I are listening to the audio of Moby Dick for bedtime [praise the Lord for ITunes :) ]. In the beginning of the book, before going to sea, Ishmael goes to church and hears the sermon addressed to outgoing seamen. Reminded me of our discussion. Check out chapters 7-9. Very few people actually read the whole of Moby Dick with its prolific descriptions of harpoon tips and and nature of whale blubber- but IMHO every one should read or hear this archetypal sermon :)
To whet your appetites here is the set up-
" . . . the preacher slowly turned over the leaves of the Bible, and at last, folding his hand down upon the proper page, said: "Beloved shipmates, clinch the last verse of the first chapter of Jonah - "And God had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah."
"Shipmates, this book, containing only four chapters - four yarns - is one of the smallest strands in the mighty cable of the Scriptures. Yet what depths of the soul does Jonah's deep sealine sound! what a pregnant lesson to us is this prophet! . . ."
Blessings
James |
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| roadrunning Member Joined May 9, 2008 320 posts |
| "the Great Fish" |
Posted May 19, 2009; 3:55 pm |
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Hi James,
You asked: | Quote: | | Given 1 Corinthians 12 description of the work of the Holy Spirit in the church however, do you see any Biblical inconsistency in my statement that the church is the only unequivocal expression of the Kingdom of God? |
and you quoted | Quote: | "And God had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah."
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I see the great fish as part of God's kingdom work on earth. I think the Holy Spirit is the unequivocal expression of the kingdom of heaven - working on earth. This is because the Holy Spirit "comes from God". The 'great fish', on the other hand, is used by God to serve God's purposes 'on earth'. I think if God can use a fish, a donkey, and any other assorted 'creatures' to accomplish God's will on earth, God can most certainly use a human being. I believe that the Bible recounts some stories to support this idea. The difference between God's use of 'people' and other creatures is the human ability to reason in accordance with God's will or to defy God's will - i.e.Pharaoh - Scripture says BOTH that Pharoah hardened his heart and the God hardened Pharoah's heart. There is a relationship of moral will and intellect that comes into play with human beings that makes humans accountable for their actions.
This accountability, I believe, includes Christians AND non-Christians (see Matthew 25 where Christ describes the judgment day - some so called 'unbelievers' seem to be surprised that they were participating in "kingdom' work). Some 'believers', on the other hand, seemed surprised that they are being held accountable on the judgment day. "When were we neglectful?"
It seems to me that believers are capable of neglecting to do kingdom work, and non-believers can participate in 'kingdom work'. It just depends on how we see and define the 'kingdom of God' and the intersections between the "kingdom of God on earth" and the "kingdom of God in heaven". From my perspective, I see kingdom work - the work of the Spirit of God - all over the place - and not just in the church.  Perhaps these are figments of my 'imagination' but I do believe in the God who is beyond all that I can "ask or imagine". No small boxes for the Spirit of God, I say ... Even the universe cannot hold the God of heaven from my perspective ... May the Creator of the Universe infuse each day and each place with the Creative Energy of God's Love through the means available to God - the Powerful, Comforting, Ever Present Spirit of God  |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2916 posts |
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Posted May 19, 2009; 5:24 pm |
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WCFOM - well put ! I can live with those statements and still consider it a mystery.
So, now that we have the culture and the kingdom thing basically settled, can we talk about the practical application of being a 21st century MB community of believers that are lights in a world of darkness. In a previous post I tried to get some input on how we can best present God's peace to the world. I think there are various actions we can take that display our beliefs regarding peace. We may need to kick around what kind of peaceful actions have eternal value. What I am looking for is things like what the Amish displayed to the world by not only forgiving those who murdered their loved ones but also doing something especially good to those who were close to the perpetrators. IMO, they displayed some real Jesus' teachings and the world took notice. Are we allowing the peace of God to rule in our hearts ? What might this look like to a watching world ? What are we doing that makes us identifiable as Kingdom of God people that stands apart from the various, secular charitable groups in our society ? Do they see God working in us ? How ? |
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| James Toews Member Joined Mar 31, 2006 409 posts |
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Posted May 19, 2009; 5:43 pm |
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Just one last interjection, Sudsy :)
Hi Roadrunning
We both agree that God is at work in the world in ways far beyond what we can ask or imagine. It seems to me that your understanding of the Kingdom of God is so broad that nothing is excluded- mine is so narrow that the wonderful work of WCFOM’s daughter at the Cancer Agency isn’t necessarily included. The really Good News is that God still works and invites us to participate.
After a good debate over words, I like to be reminded of what is really important and Paul’s words work for me- “If I . . . can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge . . . but have not love, I am nothing.” 1 Cor 13:2
I’m glad we can talk about these things with the confidence that we “are” something.
Blessings
James |
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| thursday Member Joined May 6, 2009 94 posts |
| The Holy Sprit knows no boundaries |
Posted May 19, 2009; 7:50 pm |
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Hello James,
you said:
| Quote: | | It seems to me that your understanding of the Kingdom of God is so broad that nothing is excluded |
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Although I cannot speak for Road Running, your statement gives me the impression that you do not really understand what was being said. I did not see any indication in Road Runnings comment that would lead me to belive that the KOG is anything other than the rule of God on earth. Rather the comments made by RR attempt to eliminate the rules we try to place on the Holy Spirit. IMO Kingdom Work is always the work of God (Holy Spirit) but it is not always done by people who profess a Christian Faith. An example that comes to my mind is an organization very close to my heart: MCC. This organization does not hide the fact that it is working towards building the KoG. Yet, MCC has many volunteers who do not profess a Christian faith (especially in their overseas relief work). Some of these non-Christians serve as very capable workers for the goals of MCC. IMO the Holy Spirit is at work in these volunteers' hearts and is at work in their labour. I am deeply troubled as to why we wish to put limits on where God can and cannot be present.
James I agree with your comment:
| Quote: | | we “are” something |
however I am not one that likes to focus on what makes us distinct before we have a discussion on where we are the same. IMO we are human first before we are Christian. I am in agreement with Road Running who pointed out:
| Quote: | | I think if God can use a fish, a donkey, and any other assorted 'creatures' to accomplish God's will on earth, God can most certainly use a human being. |
Perhaps the disagreement lies within where the source of "Kingdom work" comes from. IMO ALL kingdom work has the same source of God. It is arrogant to think that the work of the Kingdom cannot occur outside of the church. After all God cannot be put in a box--not even the box that is the hearts of sincere believers. Going back to your original comment--I do not see how this vision is so broad that it does not allow for any exclusion. In this vision there is an obvious exclusion: any work that it is not inspired by the Holy Spirit. |
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| roadrunning Member Joined May 9, 2008 320 posts |
| vices and virtues |
Posted May 19, 2009; 8:09 pm |
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Hello James,
You wrote | Quote: | We both agree that God is at work in the world in ways far beyond what we can ask or imagine. It seems to me that your understanding of the Kingdom of God is so broad that nothing is excluded- mine is so narrow that the wonderful work of WCFOM’s daughter at the Cancer Agency isn’t necessarily included. The really Good News is that God still works and invites us to participate.
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Thanks for the feedback. I am enjoying this conversation.
To address your question/comment - my view does not equate "all things" with God or the kingdom of God. In fact, I differentiate quite carefully between "the things of this world" and the Creator of this world. From my perspective, the "kingdom of heaven" belongs to God and crashes into the "kingdoms of earth" through the presence of the Triune God - as Creator God, Christ and Holy Spirit. The Lord's Prayer - "may God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven" seems to make a similar distinction.
I base my point of view on the letters of Paul in particular. At the end of each of his letters to the churches, he puts forward the vices and virtues that were recognized in 1st century Greco-Roman society. He puts forward the argument that the Christians can observe/demonstrate some of the same virtues as non-Christians, and abhor some of the same vices. He seems to make the argument that Christians can participate in the 'kingdom of earth' but will do so with a different motive or inspiration.
I wonder - could a key difference be that perhaps you are linking the presence of the 'kingdom of heaven/God' with the unique inspiration Christians have, and I am linking the 'kingdom of heaven' intruding into the 'kingdoms of earth' with the common virtues Paul draws attention to.
From this point of view, the "kingdom of heaven" would be demonstrated in love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, self-control, kindness, humillity, what is noble, right, pure, lovely, admirable, excellence, praiseworthiness, gentleness, lack of anxiety, compassion, forgiveness (see Philippians 4, Colossians 3, Galatians 5 for example).
The vices that would not be part of the "kingdom of heaven/God" would be sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, greed, anger, rage, malice, slander, filthy language, lying, (Colossians 3), righteousness that is of our own doing that comes from the law (Phil. 3:9) debauchery, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, orgies and the like (Galatians 5:19-21).
I would not want to be misunderstood as labelling all the vices of this world with the kingdom of heaven/God. I do, however, want to make the argument that in and through Christ, God has "bought back" redeemed, sanctified, restored the creation of God - God's kingdom on earth - as a 'now and not yet'. Let those with eyes see, and those with ears hear, what the Lord our God has done.
Perhaps I am making these arguments from different premises. My attention has been drawn to the way Paul uses the conventional vices and virtues of his time and place to locate the Christian in a particular way (as uniquely inspired by the Spirit of God). I would enjoy discussing this further because I may be too generous with my view. |
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| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
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Posted May 19, 2009; 9:22 pm |
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[quote="Sudsy"]WCFOM - well put ! I can live with those statements and still consider it a mystery.
So, now that we have the culture and the kingdom thing basically settled, can we talk about the practical application of being a 21st century MB community of believers that are lights in a world of darkness. In a previous post I tried to get some input on how we can best present God's peace to the world. I think there are various actions we can take that display our beliefs regarding peace. We may need to kick around what kind of peaceful actions have eternal value. What I am looking for is things like what the Amish displayed to the world by not only forgiving those who murdered their loved ones but also doing something especially good to those who were close to the perpetrators. IMO, they displayed some real Jesus' teachings and the world took notice. Are we allowing the peace of God to rule in our hearts ? What might this look like to a watching world ? What are we doing that makes us identifiable as Kingdom of God people that stands apart from the various, secular charitable groups in our society ? Do they see God working in us ? How ?[/quote]
Sudsy i think we are still at the definition stage
re: my second bolded section of your post - in my view - a Xtian can be doing exactly the same thing as the secular person but with different motives. For example: two people working at a job side by side.
And i think James still misses a point i was trying to make in my pulling the strands together statement - I was trying to argue in my third statement that everything Xtians do is 'kingdom work' and trying to get away from using those two words altogether.
| Quote: | | Kingdom citizens, as individuals in their vocations, at their leisure and corporately in their lives together, are representatives of their King. They are in the Kingdom - involved in Kingdom. Perhaps speaking of ‘Kingdom work’ pushes us into false distinctions. |
Last edited by westcoast frame of mind on May 19, 2009; 9:51 pm; edited 2 times in total. |
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