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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2833 posts |
 21st Century MB Communities |
Posted Apr 22, 2009; 4:39 pm |
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I have heard a fair amount about how individualistic our society has become and how this mind set has been a hindrance to an Anabaptist community concept of Christianity. Sometimes, it seems to me, we get stuck there in putting down individualism and don't get into talking about what a 21st Century MB community should look like. Maybe we have, but I just missed it. 
Anyway, I wonder if we could kick around some thoughts on this. Do local, MB church congregations today have a distinct, observable community that the unbelieving world is aware of ? What are these defining characteristics ? What should they be ? How are/should they be noticeably different from other Christian faith groups ? If we left town, what impact would the absence of our MB community have on the community at large ? |
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| Len Member Joined Nov 7, 2007 255 posts Location: Kelowna, BC |
| 21st century |
Posted Apr 23, 2009; 1:51 pm |
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Over the last fifty years MBs have been trying hard to catch up to modernity. Now that we have arrived there many of us wondering what we have lost in the process.
Good post recently at Desert Pastor.. here it is..
DesertPastor asks, “Would your church leave a hole in the community?”
“In part, as a result of our consumer-driven culture, most communities are filled with LOTS of churches. But how many of them are considered indispensible by the majority of citizens who live there?”
“How big of a difference are we making in our community, and if our congregation were to suddenly disappear, what size hole would we leave?”
http://desertpastor.typepad.com/paradoxology/ |
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| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
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Posted Apr 23, 2009; 4:32 pm |
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I think the Conservative Party would loose a few members  |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2833 posts |
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Posted Apr 23, 2009; 5:48 pm |
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Thanks Len. This article includes -
To get you thinking, here are three possibilities:
* How easy/difficult would it be for your community to replace your church's work among the poor and unemployed?
* If your church were to stop doing for the community what it's been doing, would it make the front page? the back page? Any page?
* Do the other congregations in your community look to your church for resources of any kind?
My opinion for our church would be 'not difficult', 'no page' and 'perhaps just the Salvation Army'.
However, these type of things could be asked of a service club in how they contribute to the community. Although this should be part of what we do, and is poorly or not done by many local churches, I think our distinction must go far beyond what a service club can contribute. What makes us stand out from all the other charitable and community assistance organizations ?
I believe one thing to consider is that scripture says that they will know us to be Christians by our love for one another. Is our community love relationship one that stands out distinctively richer than any service club ? Do we show a genuine love and concern for all believers in Christ regardless of the local church they attend ? Do we demonstrate a special care for those within our church community that are widows, poor, physically challenged or marginalized ?
And what about the things we should be that many in the general community may not like ? Scripture says that the proclamation of the Gospel will be an offense to some. Are some getting offended by our sharing the Gospel message because they do not like what they hear ? Would some like us to shut our doors for good ?
How was the early church identifiable and known as a unique community of believers ? If we do not believe that God operates today in signs and wonders, then are we not at a disadvantage in being identified as a community that demonstrates the power of God ?
I just thought I would throw these in off the top of my head and try to see if we would even agree on what a 21st century MB community should look and operate like in this world. |
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| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
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Posted Apr 25, 2009; 1:43 pm |
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The ‘Desert Pastor’ post asks three questions which appear to only have the corporate activities of the church in view. Of course, this is not the only perspective. The church is more than a building and the influence of the group of people (the real church) who gather together is not only corporate. We can also answer the three questions from the perspective of an individual believer’s influence as well as the church’s corporate efforts. Think about how individual believers impact their communities – on their jobs, through their volunteer work at various community groups and so forth. And here I’m not primarily thinking about evangelistic efforts but thinking about people doing their jobs with integrity, people becoming involved in various efforts to make a difference. I like the questions, and also agree with Sudsy that other questions could be added to the list (evangelistic impact). I also want to think about what people do in their small little lives apart from organized churchy activity. Which leads me to speak to Sudsy’s opening post…..
| Quote: | | Anyway, I wonder if we could kick around some thoughts on this. Do local, MB church congregations today have a distinct, observable community that the unbelieving world is aware of ? What are these defining characteristics ? What should they be ? How are/should they be noticeably different from other Christian faith groups ? If we left town, what impact would the absence of our MB community have on the community at large ? |
1. Do local, MB church congregations today have a distinct, observable community that the unbelieving world is aware of ?
I think it depends on how large the community is the church finds itself in and the size of the church. Some churches are ‘multi-campus’ some groups meeting in a theatre, some meeting on a large church property. There is no ‘distinct, observable community’ to the unbelieving world except for a parade of vehicles and people gathering for meetings. I suppose in some of those groups the unbelieving world may observe people carrying Bibles into buildings. But in my church at least very few people carry Bibles (overhead projection takes care of that and I've never been impressed by the idea that carrying a Bible is meant to be an identifying marker for the watching world). I think the ‘unbelieving world’ at least in large urban settings may have a vague idea something is going on within various buildings but have no notion of defining characteristics. In smaller settings: rural, villages, small towns individual people may become identified with the church they attend.
2. What are these defining characteristics ? What should they be ?
We should, within the uniqueness of our personalities and giftedness, look like Jesus.
3. How are/should they be noticeably different from other Christian faith groups?
My hope would be that it wouldn’t take 5 years for someone coming to our church from another tradition to figure out that we are not all Calvinists.  I'm referring to the recent by lnm |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2833 posts |
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Posted Apr 25, 2009; 5:42 pm |
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| Quote: | | There is no ‘distinct, observable community’ to the unbelieving world except for a parade of vehicles and people gathering for meetings. |
This, to me, is sad if it means that we basically do not have observable community distinctives outside the church walls. So, is it considered that when we speak of 'community' we think of this as something within church walls or church gatherings apart from the world ? And when we speak of 'individualism', we resist any form of this within this community setting but it is OK and all we have that identifies us outside the church walls ?
I think we are really missing something when we are not observable as a community outside the church walls. Putting floats in parades, door-to-door church invite flyers, concerts in the park, environmental roadside cleanups, 'why we are a peace church' brochure distribution, building homes for the poor, perhaps church jackets with logo, bumper stickers, etc, etc. Or is the issue that we don't want to be identified in a way that could draw some ridicule ? And perhaps some of these, Jesus would not participate in.
We have an elderly lady friend that is not a believer. The Mormons have established a relationship with her and as a community they look for things they can do for her. If she casually says her yard or garden needs some work, the next day a crew of people show up to weed and care for her garden. Sometimes they just call up and invite her out for a meal at a restaurant or at the church. They always pick up the tab. And they visit frequently and show concern with no arm twisting regarding becoming a Mormon. How much of this kind of thing are we seeing in our churches ? I know the deacons do some of this but primarily within the church community. We shoveled snow off walks for non-churched people one winter but interest fell off and the youth were no where to be found.
| Quote: | | We should, within the uniqueness of our personalities and giftedness, look like Jesus. |
And do we shine our lights like Him ? A city on a hill cannot be hid. Do unbelievers regard us as true Christ followers or perhaps just nice people that don't have many bad habits ? What was Jesus like ? Well, He mingled with drunks and prostitutes, the poor and marginalized, thieves and beggars. Do we ? How often, how much ? How did He regard material gain ? How did He deal with false religion ? Did He use 'respectful dialogue' ? Why did the scriptures say 'He wept' ? Do we weep for the same reason ? Etc, etc. This is the kind of things I think we should seriously study if we truly want to be Christ followers. Is this what we are being taught in our churches ? Are we following up with one another and being accountable in being like Christ ?
I think we would be noticeably different from most other Christian faith groups if we truly pursued Christ likeness. I wonder if we began looking closely at being like Christ, whether many that call themselves 'Christian' would join in. How many are so attached to this world and it's values that they would see this way of life as giving something up that they do not want to give up.
I believe a Christ centered community would create a love/hate relationship with the broader community. They would have to acknowledge all the good deeds being done but at the same time many would despise and try to shut down the beliefs that go with them. I saw some of this in the Salvation Army where they are highly regarded but they must be careful in sharing their beliefs to keep 'doors open'. Jesus said we would be hated and yet we want respect and be treated well. Scripture says we will be considered as fools but we want them to consider us as wise. So, what is being like Christ or a Christ follower really about ? If we watch some TV preachers today, it certainly is a different Christ they are following than the one in the scriptures. Yes/No ?
Anyway, I am trying to stir up some that may be 'readers only MBs' and get their input also. For being a group that centers our beliefs of a Christ focus, how well are we really doing as Christ followers ? Perhaps we should create a survey and go door-to-door and find out from people what kind of impact we are making.  |
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| lornewel Member Joined May 11, 2004 553 posts Location: Abbotsford |
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Posted Apr 26, 2009; 9:15 am |
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Where I live, I highly doubt that the general community sees ny church as any different from any other evangelical church, if they give it any thought at all. Rarely would an unbeliever ask me if I am part of a church or which one. There are many churches, even lots of MB churches in my city. In conversations with other believers, which one we each attend may be part of our conversation and, if so, the most common comment or question I get is about our senior pastor (not just now but for years.) So, for beleivers in my town, the lead pastor is the "marker" for the particluar congregation, and "what is the preaching like?" is the commo9n question among believers.
I agree with Sudsy that if were really an incarnation of God as Jesus was, we would attract huge attention. He scandalized and insulted the "good people" big time while the "sinners," the poor, sick and broiken flocked to him for hope. |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2833 posts |
| WOW ! 'A fragrant community of Christ' |
Posted Apr 28, 2009; 1:31 pm |
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I just ran across this sermon by a Mennonite pastor regarding the kind of community we can be in today's world and he quotes 'David Fitch' who has been mentioned recently in forum posts. Take sometime and either read this sermon or listen to him on this link and share any thoughts - http://www.pvmcsermons.com/2008/09/phil-kniss-how-not-to-evangelize.html
I must listen to it again. What a dream he has for his church as a community of believers in our culture in this 21st century. |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2833 posts |
| A Simplistic and Embracing Community |
Posted May 7, 2009; 8:56 am |
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Musing more on a 21st century MB community, is it beyond hope to think we can go back to the simple ways of living that Jesus and his followers demonstrated in the NT ?
I wonder how much stuff Jesus would have if He lived in our culture today and what He would say about the stuff we think we need. It seems that many believers have become quite middle to middle upper class as they have applied themselves in this culture with good work ethics and pursuance of higher education. The result for many is having an abundance of money to purchase stuff well beyond basic needs. And now we see a form of Christianity being preached to support lavish lifestyles as believers in the 'prosperity gospel' teachings. Seems like we are heading the opposite of the way of the Master.
One concern this materialism brings is that it seems that the marginalized (lower income, welfare, some ethnic groups, physically challenged, repeat law breakers, etc) are basically being neglected by the church when Jesus specifically reached out to these when He lived on the earth. I recall as a young boy always filling our car with these 'marginalized' believers that needed transportation to church. And many in the church would do this and sometimes making more than one trip to bring these people to church. Today, I see one or two doing this and it seems we have basically lost touch with those who often are the most open to the Gospel. Have we not become much like the Pharisees ?
Do these folk make us uncomfortable ? If they do then what does this say about our Christianity ? Do the marginalized regard our churches as a place of hope and acceptance ? Jesus was criticized by the elite church goers for mingling with sinners. If He was part of our church today, would we too, reprimand Him for not separating Himself from the world ?
Perhaps, it is time to downsize all our luxury cars and homes, yes even boats and other toys and to return to simple, moderate living that makes all classes of people feel loved and welcomed. Or has materialism and success as the world views success got a strangle hold on the church today ?
Anyone else thinking about stuff like this ? What kind of community does Jesus want us to be ? |
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| lornewel Member Joined May 11, 2004 553 posts Location: Abbotsford |
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Posted May 7, 2009; 10:10 am |
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What about going back to "the simple ways of living that Jesus and his followers demonstrated?" Would it glorify God in our day if, like Jesus, we all quit our jobs, became homeless and went around from place to place, couch-surfing and sponging off women followers? What about the command that he who does not work should not eat? 2 Thess 3:10
After the day of Pentecost when the Jerusalem beleivers "had everything in common." we know that people sold goods and property including houses and lands to support those among them who had less. Somebody must have been working, running businesses, earning income or there would be no way to sustain that. There is a lot of detail the gospel accounts do not give us becasue they would not be the point of the story. For example, did the 12 disciples have wives and children? If so, how did they carry out their responsibilities toward them while following Jesus? Peter James and John seemed to have retained their fishing boats because we know they went back to them at times. Peter had a mother-in-law, so it seems he was married. How often did his wife get to see him? Did they have kids? James and John may have been single. We know they had a father Zebedee who was in the fishing business with them and that their mother asked Jesus for her boys to be in number 2 spot in the kingdom. I guess we assume Jesus was single, but I don't recall anything in scripture which actually says so. His mother, sisters and brothers are mentioned.
Gotta run now, but hope to get back later to muse about the "embracing" part of Sudsy's post. |
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| thursday Member Joined May 6, 2009 94 posts |
| Simplicity and community in the 21st century |
Posted May 7, 2009; 1:55 pm |
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Lornewel. I appreciate the tension in your post between living simply and meeting the practical demands of life. The desire to live simply is surely a noble one; however many have made the error of trying to "copy and paste" the 1st century practice of the disciples into today's context. It is important to understand that those spoken of in "the Acts of the Apostles" had an understanding of the imminent return of Christ. They believed that he would make his return within their lifetimes. Because of this these early disciples did not feel the need to develop 'sustainable' lifestyles--the selling of all their goods makes more sense in light of this.
I would like to suggest that in the 21st century context Christians still eagerly anticipate the return of Christ but also understand that it is possible that he may not return in our lifetimes. Because of this sustainable practices ought to be adopted. It seems to me that Christian communities need to heed the advice of Jeremiah: "Build houses and live in them; and plant gardens and eat their produce" (29:5).
Based on this principle of Jeremiah, I think that the most noticable thing lacking from Christian communities is roots in the community. Using the imagery of Jeremiah, often we set up tents instead of building houses. So much of ministry is focused on "going out" (which can be a valuable thing) that often our own back yard can become neglected. As MBs we should always be visible and take part in things like block parties, civic events, parades, pac committees, highway clean up etc. Although we need to ensure that our church community is kept distinct from our civil community--these two should not be viewed as a dichotomy but rather as a dialectic (they are different and exist in tension with each other but not polar opposites that cannot co-exist).
I think having this "local" perspective also ties in to the concerns voiced at the beginning of the post.
| Quote: | | If we left town, what impact would the absence of our MB community have on the community at large ? |
From a local perspective the community at large may not at first understand what the hole is in the community but if the MBs suddenly vanished it is my hope that people would be wondering what happened to their friendly, loving, active, and caring neighbour. |
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| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
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Posted May 7, 2009; 6:55 pm |
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I tend to think that trying to mimic an imagined golden era of the early church is naïve. That doesn’t negate what Sudsy has written about simplicity and ‘embracing’ the marginalized. I’ll restrict my comments to one segment of the marginalized: ‘repeat law breakers’ – and restrict comments even further to dealing with addiction. Churches have resources in people skills and finances to assist in unlicensed recovery societies. [Note: licensed addiction services are run by folk with university/graduate level addiction degrees and are typically government funded.]
In BC, and I assume in other provinces, many unlicensed residential recovery societies are begun by recovered addicts who have some entrepreneurial skills (just to survive in active addiction on the streets takes a great deal of skill). There is a need for mature Christians with organizational skills, building maintenance background and people skills coupled with spiritual maturity and some street smarts to come along side these societies to offer stability.
Many of the people who begin residential recovery houses have big hearts, dreams and some addiction training but lack the organizational skills necessary to give a society the type of structure to protect the life of the society and the people they want to reach. The people running the houses often relapse or are unable to provide the addiction counseling necessary to ensure ongoing recovery. A recovery house can turn into a crack shack within weeks. Normals are needed (I’ve heard street people/drug addicts call people who don’t deal with addiction ‘normals’).
NEEDED: People who will write cheques, just as important (or more so) people who can come alongside and offer program, budgeting, fund raising, help, advice and hands on interaction with clients. Residents in a faith based recovery society usually go to church (part of the program) they are looking for a church with lively application orientated worship services. But most of all they need a church where they can come to worship, be a little noisy, slip out back for a smoke and still be accepted. And they need ‘normals’ willing to embrace them. |
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| lornewel Member Joined May 11, 2004 553 posts Location: Abbotsford |
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Posted May 8, 2009; 12:05 am |
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I'm back for the "embracing" part.
My home church was founded over 25 years ago. A number of the original families were well off and the church got the reputation (possibly deservedly) as the yuppy church - the one with the most BMWs and SUVs in the parking lot. But it also had good principles and leadership and its growth was noticed. It became a leader in "church growth."
In the past 5 -10 years, we've had our troubles. Most of those first families left and planted another church. Our re-growth now comes largely from Alpha converts, and many of those are recovering addicts and (likely) repeat offenders. We are accepting of those who go out for a smoke, rejoice loudly (because are quite clear that they have lots to rejoice about) and so on. We may have lost some old time members, but mostly we rejoice in what God is doing. The regulars at our weekly prayer meeting are bout 50-50 old timers and recovering newbies. Quite regularly we are praying for friends who have relapsed, ODd, for their dysfunctional familes, etc. It's good. Keeps us real.
We have some ethnic diversity, but not nearly enough to reflect our city's diversity. |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2833 posts |
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Posted May 8, 2009; 1:12 pm |
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Thursday - regarding Christ coming in our lifetime. When you said 'sustainable practices ought to be adopted', I thought back at my teen years when my parents, fairly new converts at the time and quite evangelical, did not put much emphasis on the current life as they expected the Lord to come in their lifetime. We heard many sermons on the 'signs of the times' that pointed to Christ coming at any moment. Actually I went through a period where I was seriously considering going to Bible college but I did not get any encouragement in this area because it was thought that since the Lord could come any day, we should be evangelizing all we could. And my parents lived out that point of view. But, looking back, a little encouragement may have set me on a completely different path.
| Quote: | | Based on this principle of Jeremiah, I think that the most noticable thing lacking from Christian communities is roots in the community. |
I quite agree with you thursday (not on thursdays but you know what I mean  ). We have a sign in letters on the window over the exit door of our church which says 'You are now entering the mission field'. However, our emphasis is still largely on foreign missions. I am not quite sure why MBs have not grasped that the harvest is ripe right in our own backyard. I wonder if the concept of keeping separate from the world has been mis-represented. Jesus certainly did not conform to worldly thinking but He was right out there mixing with those who were lost. He was the friend of sinners.
WCFOM - | Quote: | | NEEDED: People who will write cheques, just as important (or more so) people who can come alongside and offer program, budgeting, fund raising, help, advice and hands on interaction with clients. Residents in a faith based recovery society usually go to church (part of the program) they are looking for a church with lively application orientated worship services. But most of all they need a church where they can come to worship, be a little noisy, slip out back for a smoke and still be accepted. And they need ‘normals’ willing to embrace them. |
Yes, I think some believers God has blessed them with the opportunities to gain wealth and to provide it to further His purposes. And many of us can come 'alongside' in various ways, if we are willing to give up some of our time for these kinds of ministries. Our church is becoming more and more like the church you describe. We need to allow people to grow at the pace that God wants, not what we expect. If spiritual growth is seen more as a journey, we can encourage and exhort each other and not be passing judgements on how close another person is to an expected norm of spiritual maturity. We are to love one another and allow the Holy Spirit to do His work in sanctification. It is not our job, although He may use us in mentoring.
Lornewel - our church is looking more like your current church. Some MBs that have been around for years, really don't like the changes from the way things have always been. Some have moved on to more traditional Mennonite groups. Some still just sit around disgruntled, hoping for the day that things will return to the good ol days. This happens in all churches in every denomination. But like you say, new converts may not act quite like those who grew up in church who either adopted certain norms or have convictions in certain areas but these new converts do have lots to shout about. I, myself, rejoice and weep much over God's tolerance and acceptance after returning from many backslidden years.
Our ethnic diversity also is growing as we don't put the 'Mennonite' word up front and center. I think this can and should be left for discipleship training as we look back into our roots. I still run across people in our city who would not think of coming to our church because they consider it for Mennonites only. I try to convince them that they will not feel out of place. I know that I had to get over this because the first time I walked into the door of our current MB church, many years ago, people were coming up to me and trying to figure out how my last name 'Sudds' was of Mennonite origin. This really made me feel uncomfortable.
And as you say, we, too, have some older MBs that do go with the flow and are quite patient with new converts and are encouragements to these new attendees. We do various things to embrace those that enter the church door. We just don't do much to reach out into the community and embrace those where they are at. I'm hoping this will come about as I know from past experience in a Pentecostal and again in a Baptist church how this impacted the community.
So, I don't think we can or should go back and re-live the early NT days in the way they did but I think Jesus teachings and example on being a friend to sinners is not a cultural thing. He taught much about where we should put our focus and not to get too concerned about our basic needs as He said that if we put Him first and His righteousness, these things will be taken care of. But to free up some time for community involvement, we will probably all have to make adjustments that are uncomfortable at first. However, along with the struggles, there is much joy to be had. When we do it unto the least of these we are doing it unto Him and there is great joy in serving Jesus. |
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| thursday Member Joined May 6, 2009 94 posts |
| Christ and Culture |
Posted May 11, 2009; 7:10 pm |
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I have been reflecting generally on the topc of 21st century MB communities. One of the fundamental issues for this topic is the relationship between Christ and culture.
I would love to hear what you all think re: this relationship. To kick start this discussion I thought it might be helpful to use the typology put forward by H. Richard Niebuhr in his well-known work Christ and Culture. There he outlines five different perspectives on this relationship (keep in mind different issues may call for different points of view):
1) Christ against culture: this perspective sees the relationship as adversarial. Culture is seen as hostile to the Christian faith and Christians should therefore separate themselves from it. Generally speaking this has been the stance taken by Anabaptists.
2) Christ of culture: This occurs when there is no tension between Christ and culture. In other words the truths and values taught by culture and Christianity are in agreement. An example of this could be Yarrow after it was settled by Mennonites or Geneva after in the time of Calvin.
3) Christ above culture: This point of view holds that culture is capable of coming up with certain truths which can be brought to their fullfilment through the presence of Christ. It recognizes that natural law/reason can come up with truths such as do not murder but realizes that revelation is needed to come up with the principle that we should not be angry. Christianity is therefore a fulfillment rather than an alternative to culture
4) Christ in paradox with culture: in this category Christians are called to participate fully in culture but to maintain their ultimate loyalty to Christ. The two therefore exist in a sort of tension. Both must be seen as priorities. BTW my last post gives me away as holding to this perspective
5) Christ transforming culture: In this category the arrival of Christ transforms culture. As transformed Christians our job is to transform the rest of culture. This includes politicals, entertainment, etc. Under this category would fall Calvinists as well as the political religious-right.
I'd be interested in hearing from all of you in regards to which of these five you identify with most strongly and why. |
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