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| James Toews Member Joined Mar 31, 2006 362 posts |
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Posted Jan 14, 2010; 12:27 am |
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We drifted quite a distance from the topic we began with but I have just read Chesteron's Orthodoxy and now have a glut of great quotes to expend :) One came to mind that is nicely Anabaptist and a good reminder to us all-
| Quote: | It is a good exercise to try for once in a way to express any opinion one holds in words of one syllable . . . The long words are not the hard words, it is the short words that are hard. There is much more metaphysical subtlety in the
word "damn" than in the word "degeneration." |
This is a real challenge. Chesterton has an amazing vocabulary but recognizes the flaw in that. I was also recently introduced to Stuart Murray and the Anabaptist Network and he makes a comment that strikes to the heart of this matter he notes the tendency of scholars to get lost in complex ideas and his admission that "the Anabaptist Network has struggled against. In our publications and conferences we have not always been sufficiently down to earth in exploring the practical outworkings of our Anabaptist values and convictions." |
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| Neto Member Joined Feb 2, 2005 254 posts Location: Holmes County, Ohio |
| MB history; simple speech vs rhetoric |
Posted Jan 14, 2010; 6:45 am |
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Regarding the comments made by the firsts MBs back in 1860, I think that everyone realizes that this must be taken in historical context. I haven’t heard the “other side” of the issue, if anything exists of their thoughts. Probably the characteristics of the Mennonite church at that time which most upset our forefathers were not completely generalized across the board. Should they have stayed and tried to help bring renewal to the whole (Mennonite) culture, or were they right in “coming out from among them”? I don’t think we can get enough information to answer this question. I also do not think that the “judgements” they made then are meant to be applied to the descendants of the rest of the Mennonite church, either. People change, and so do whole movements. In the years since I was thrust out of a majority Mennonite setting, I have made many friends who are from other theological persuasions, Lutherans, 5-point Calvinists, etc, and none of them ever tried to burn me at the stake, or drown me in a freezing river. On the mission field our closest friends were Calvinists, and the exposure in that “ecumenical soup” changed them too – I think all of their children have chosen to be (re)baptized upon their personal faith, and the parents have rejoiced with them in this.
Speaking of simplicity of speech vs fancy rhetoric, I recall my impressions from a Bible Conf held at the Bible Institute where I attended my first year of college. It was not a Mennonite institution, but by far the majority of staff and students were Mennonites, with GCs way out ahead. The “charismatic problem” was high on the list of many during that time, as the school was dispensational, and the charismatics were gaining ground in many “traditional” churches. I became involved myself, and was expelled from school there, for heresy, I guess. J.J. Toews was one of the speakers at that Bible Conf, and in spite of the fact that he was not a person especially pleasant to look at (tall and gangly, with wild hair and rough featured face), he is the only one I remember to this day. (That was during the 74-75 school year.) He spoke slowly, as though he was mentally translating in his head before he could “press himself out” in English. He said: | Quote: | | The Spirit-filled life is Christ centered. |
I believe that is true. I don’t know if that should be called just “Biblical”, or if it needs to be called “Biblical Anabaptism”, but it is deeply grounded in scripture. Others spoke eloquently, and got a lot more said in terms of how many words came out of their mouths, but I only remember one thing that all of the rest of the speakers said – one man said (speaking to the charismatic “problem”): | Quote: | | I wouldn’t mind being baptized in a 10,000 gallon tank of water, but I wouldn’t want to be filled with it. |
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| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
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Posted Jan 14, 2010; 9:37 am |
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I'm appreciating this converstion.
I followed up on James comment about the Anabaptist Network and found this site; http://www.anabaptistnetwork.com/
lots of info. and links which lead to articles etc. The site looks worth checking out.
On keeping it simple / words - I think i may have mentioned this before but I remember a prof saying 'if u can't explain it to a child u don't really understand it' and i think it was JI Packer who said that. If u try reading that 30+ PSA paper from the other Thread u might find it hard to believe he said that 
Thanks for sharing Neto ! (I don't think u are a heritic)
I agree we learn from other streams of church traditions. |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2833 posts |
| Neo-Anabaptism |
Posted Jan 14, 2010; 12:11 pm |
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Looking into this Anabaptist Network site, I ran across this Methodist, Philip Meadows who wrote an article called 'Anabaptist Leanings of a 'Kinda' Methodist'. He said some things that got my attention regarding being sectarian.
Philip writes - '-- we might say that it is an intentional commitment to living a certain way in the world, or taking up with everyday life, in the midst of other competing accounts of reality. Nation-states secure it through domestic and international violence; whereas Christians look to the cultivation of disciplined fellowship. On these terms, the pursuit of Christian perfection is not first about policing the borders of a community (though it clearly can be reduced to this) but the importance of maintaining a truthful witness to the Kingdom of God in a world of unbelief. To be sectarian means knowing that there is a competition for our souls: that there are other ways of life (of thinking, speaking, feeling, acting) which are contrary to the Kingdom of God; which are in the air that we breathe; which will shape our lives apart from a community of resistance and counter-cultural practices. To be sectarian, therefore, does not necessarily entail ‘fleeing to the desert’, or being isolated from ‘the world’, but intentionally seeking the Kingdom amidst the ‘powers that be’ as a form of spiritual struggle. Examined this way, it is not surprising that those espousing forms of Christian perfection have, through the history of Christendom, been persecuted as heretics. Even when such persons and communities have sought to live a peaceable life, their very existence is experienced as a witness against a worldly church, and must be silenced.'
This got me wondering if a new form of Anabaptism would welcome a way of life that involves a pursuit of Christ like perfection when that pursuit promises a response of persecution. Are we ready and willing to engage in spiritual warfare against Kingdom living or have we got so comfortable in our more isolated, respected, seldom persecuted and materially prosperous communities that we will resist being seen as heretics or radical believers ? And as in Jesus time here on earth, the major persecution came from religious folk. I don't doubt this would still be the case today.
Well, hope to spend more time investigating this site. Thanks WCFOM and Len for these various links that help an old feller understand better. Maybe not to well yet but better. |
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| Len Member Joined Nov 7, 2007 255 posts Location: Kelowna, BC |
| simplicity |
Posted Jan 15, 2010; 12:08 pm |
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James, I hear you.. but let me take the opposite tack for the sake of.. self-justification.. LOL.. no, seriously, for the sake of a community hermeneutic. See.. more bigs words.. probably should not have used them right?
Or is there some value in challenging others who have only a vague idea what that means to do some exploration?
Last year I wrote an article I called, "Twitter, Complexity and the Way we Live." Among other things, I argued that in the sound-byte and Twitter generation we are in greater danger than ever of reducing complex discussions to three points. What gets lost in that translation? To my mind, a great deal. In part I wrote this..
But I wonder if the greatest factors in this push toward simplicity in our conversations are not twofold: fragmentation, and information overload - both related to the pace at which we live. Fragmentation results from our pursuing multiple goods in multiple communities, not really sure where we belong (to whom?) and to what we are called. Few of us have a “community of virtue” to which we can point and say, “this is my people” and “there is the gospel enfleshed.” So we live with this lack of focus and clarity, and with weak or unexpressed covenants. That in turn promotes endless debate about what we believe and how we should live.
So we have debate and opposing solutions. And in those debates one thing we do not lack is information. Everyone has an opinion, and everyone can reference some experience or expert or body of knowledge to make their argument as to what we should believe, how we should hold those beliefs, and their implications for practice. Frankly, it is all overwhelming. The “solution” advanced is to simplify.
The push for simplicity is then amplified by cultural forces that push us away from the hard work of wrestling through issues together. The fragmentation of our faith culture is overwhelming. What confidence can we have that there is some rallying point more than “just Jesus?” And the constraints on our time and energy are already overwhelming. So we prefer the sound-byte. He with the best-sound byte (and perhaps the most charisma) wins. (And this really raises a much larger issue: if authority is no longer related to a text and an interpretive community then how is it anchored? Some communities revert to charisma, a very dangerous place to end up)..
Our context is that we are shaped to prefer the sound-byte by our western media: the sound-and video-bytes of interpretive news on CNN; the text-bytes on our cell phones; the limitations of Twitter; not least of all the intense need we have to solve problems and move on. However much we decry it, we all want the quick fix. We damage the texture of our relationships and the texture of the gospel when we resort to the quick fix. (Paul Virilio - “the dominant form violence takes in modernity is speed.” And Noam Chomsky offers a revealing perspective in this YouTube short on “concision“).
Look, I’m not unique or uncompromised in this. One of the complaints I have heard too often from my wife over the years is this: “you like short cuts.” I have paid the price for taking short cuts numerous times, most often in my building projects. I have learned the hard way that a short cut taken today saves time - but in two years it will come back to bite me."
And in view of where pragmatism has taken us.. "lets just do what works" without much theological reflection.. now more than ever we need to engage as communities in the hard work of theology.
Noam Chomsky on "concision" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cceC3DeFcY |
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| gay lynn voth Member Joined Jan 25, 2005 693 posts |
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Posted Jan 15, 2010; 1:40 pm |
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In response to a question I asked: | Quote: | Sudsy, who in your environment have you seen living out the Christian lifestyle you would want to emulate? What do they do that you respect and would want to duplicate in your own life?
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Sudsy replied: | Quote: | I don't really know or look for anyone who I would like to emulate. I believe that Jesus is our example to emulate. I also think that some of the closest followers of Christ do many things in secret that I may never know about. I am blessed and encouraged when I see Christ being lived out in believers in various manifestations.
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Sudsy, I agree that Jesus is our example to emulate. I think my question may have been misinterpreted (or I framed it the wrong way  ) . I asked if you knew anyone in your environment who is living out the kind of Christian lifestyle that you think should be emulated (the kind Jesus gave us an example of).
In other words, do you know some people who you respect for how they live ... Are there people around you who do certain things that you would want to do as well?
The reason for my question is one of fellowship and community. I think it is important and helpful if we know and recognize people within our faith communities who are living out examples of our Christian convictions. Then we are not just talking about abstract ideals but we can talk together concretely about how we go about living out that life, or how we develop the convictions we practice, etc. For me this is the humble act of recognizing the other as important in my life of faith. |
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| gay lynn voth Member Joined Jan 25, 2005 693 posts |
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Posted Jan 15, 2010; 1:54 pm |
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I agree with Len: | Quote: | And in view of where pragmatism has taken us.. "lets just do what works" without much theological reflection.. now more than ever we need to engage as communities in the hard work of theology.
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I recently wrote an article for Direction which discusses the MB view of "faith and education". I suggested that we have been significantly influenced in positive and negative ways by three ways of approaching life:
1) We are 'anti-clerical' in our attitudes toward higher education and the role educated leaders could play in the churches;
2) we are pluralists - we often live out of the conviction that sectarian 'individualism' is preferrable to being rooted and united with the broader community of Christian believers. We have an emphasis on many localized communities of faith, rather than the One Church. This is true even in our conference of MB churches. We don't necessarily all believe that it is important to hold to a communal confession of faith, which generates real problems for our unity;
3) we are pragmatists - and sometimes so in a rather vulgar way. "If something doesn't make sense in an immediate way or can't be directly applied to everyday life, it must to wrong (nonsensical) or unnecessary ( a royal waste of time)."
These three attitudes together can create a particularly challenging environment in which to do scholarly theological work. Just listen to some of the stories told by MB theologians who are part of our past legacy.  |
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| roadrunning Member Joined May 9, 2008 315 posts |
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Posted Jan 15, 2010; 2:13 pm |
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Hello Len and James, Thank you for drawing attention to Stuart Murray and the Anabaptist Network overseas. I too think there is something of significance in this work, in particular as it highlights some of the tensions experienced within evangelical anabaptist communities of faith. For example, they had to deal with (and are still dealing with in some ways) the atonement issue that the MBs are now addressing. It is interesting to see how the conversation erupted, how it proceeded and how it effectively came to a temporary conclusion.
Hello Sudsy, You raised an interesting point: | Quote: | This got me wondering if a new form of Anabaptism would welcome a way of life that involves a pursuit of Christ like perfection when that pursuit promises a response of persecution. Are we ready and willing to engage in spiritual warfare against Kingdom living or have we got so comfortable in our more isolated, respected, seldom persecuted and materially prosperous communities that we will resist being seen as heretics or radical believers ? And as in Jesus time here on earth, the major persecution came from religious folk. I don't doubt this would still be the case today.
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I do think that Anabaptists (in whatever stripe or form) recognize that there is something 'peculiar' about being 'anabaptists'. They often share the knowledge that following Jesus will bring persecution and resistence from other religious folk. This is in the DNA of anabaptism. Often we are the 'third way' between religious alternatives that are highlighted in 'black and white' terms. This matter of being "caught up in the middle" can be seen as living in color. But often we are accused of being 'grey'.
Holding a middle ground can lead to 'name-calling' by both parties who are holding fast to different polar ends. The 'middle ground' is necessary for the work of mediation and reconciliation many Anabaptists are involved in. I think Anabaptists, if they are familar with the history of the Anabaptist movement will expect to be misunderstood and therefore in some way or another "persecuted'.
As you quoted: 'To be sectarian, therefore, does not necessarily entail ‘fleeing to the desert’, or being isolated from ‘the world’, but intentionally seeking the Kingdom amidst the ‘powers that be’ as a form of spiritual struggle. Examined this way, it is not surprising that those espousing forms of Christian perfection have, through the history of Christendom, been persecuted as heretics. Even when such persons and communities have sought to live a peaceable life, their very existence is experienced as a witness against a worldly church, and must be silenced.' |
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| James Toews Member Joined Mar 31, 2006 362 posts |
| Big Words/Simplicity |
Posted Jan 15, 2010; 7:32 pm |
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Your point is well taken, Len and I agree with the fact that we need big words. My point however also meshes with what you continue to say- simplicity and clarity are very hard work and very often the big words are the "sound bites."
Thanks for the training and education you bring to this discussion. |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2833 posts |
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Posted Jan 15, 2010; 7:42 pm |
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Gaylynn asked - | Quote: | | In other words, do you know some people who you respect for how they live ... Are there people around you who do certain things that you would want to do as well? |
Actually, I am not as aware of how other Christians live in my community as living in a city I do not see how other Christians live out there lives in any great detail. I see people at church and enjoy some of the interaction with them but do not really get to know how they live their lives throughout the week.
What has impressed me in the past where I did know some better was when I learned of things that some believers do that had not much recognition but they faithfully did them, such as visiting the sick and widows or volunteer work in just helping people with various things. I guess the ones that stand out to me the most today are how some of the local LDS (Mormons) treat some of the folk I know. I also am encouraged when I learn of how some share their faith and when some spend much time in prayer. I take notice of those who have money but chose to live in simplicity and cheerfully give and help others. Those in the Salvation Army who are not afraid to go into the gettos and the ones who maintain the original full gospel message. Those who on occasion openly refuse to get involved in gossip sessions or putting down another believer for how they live. Those who are willing to forsake all for the Gospel's sake.
I think these sort of things are what Christ would do. |
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| Len Member Joined Nov 7, 2007 255 posts Location: Kelowna, BC |
| simplicty |
Posted Jan 15, 2010; 8:43 pm |
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| James, you got me there too.. its hard word to move from the complexity.. sometimes I am probably lazy ;) |
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| James Toews Member Joined Mar 31, 2006 362 posts |
| Lazy? Not! |
Posted Jan 16, 2010; 12:05 pm |
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| I don't get the impression that you are lazy, Len- but lots of very hard working people take short cuts- as you noted. By the way I'm not suggesting something I'm not very familiar with :) |
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| gay lynn voth Member Joined Jan 25, 2005 693 posts |
| the power of language |
Posted Jan 16, 2010; 5:24 pm |
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In response to the brief exchanges between Len and James, I thought I would throw in the following In my morning readings, I came across something written by Fredrick Buechner about the power of language.
Buechner says: "Words can be used not merely to make things clear, make things vivid, make things interesting and whatever else, but to make things happen inside the one who reads them or hears them. When Gerard Manley Hopkins writes a poem about a blacksmith and addresses him as one who "didst fettle for the great grey drayhorse his bright and battering sandal," he is not merely bringing the blacksmith to life, but in a way is bringing us to life as well. Through the sound, rhythm, passion of his words, he is bringing to life in us, as might otherwise never have been brought to life at all, a sense of the uniqueness and mystery and holiness not just of the blacksmith and his great grey drayhorse, but of reality itself, including the reality of ourselves."
While it would be nice to have all of life presented to us with clarity and simplicity, this is not always the case .... I agree with Buechner that Hopkins' words may perhaps illuminate more than the simple clear phrase ... The man made some horseshoes for his grey horse ...  |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2833 posts |
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Posted Jan 17, 2010; 12:21 pm |
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| But some of us are more meat and potatoes type people so the 'The man made some horseshoes for his grey horse' works for us. I get lost with some of the terminology used on forums by some and yet it must be important to others on how they understand things. I think there are some conversations here that some of us must remain readers only as much goes over our heads. Sometimes it seems there is some reluctance to use Christianeze type talk that some of us our quite accustomed to but instead use terms that perhaps one only hears in seminary or reading seminary type books. So, although at times I sense we are interested in the same topic, we really can have some issues in our choice of words. But we all come from different backgrounds so we can just join in where we can. On the other hand, the simpler the talk, the more I think it will be the most inclusive in the family. |
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| Len Member Joined Nov 7, 2007 255 posts Location: Kelowna, BC |
| words |
Posted Jan 17, 2010; 1:47 pm |
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gay lynn, you are touching on a favorite topic of mine..
And the paradox is, that sometimes to reveal things we have to hide them. Jesus was our great teacher in this and Emily Dickinson writes,
Tell all the truth
But tell is slant,
Success in circuit lies.
Too bright for our infirm delight
The truth's superb surprise.
As lightning to the children
Eased with explanation kind,
The truth must dazzle gradually
or every man be blind.
And related, TS Eliot notes that we wrestle with words but so often.. they win!
So here I am, in the middle way, having had twenty years—
Twenty years largely wasted, the years of l'entre deux guerres
Trying to use words, and every attempt
Is a wholly new start, and a different kind of failure
Because one has only learnt to get the better of words
For the thing one no longer has to say, or the way in which
One is no longer disposed to say it. And so each venture
Is a new beginning, a raid on the inarticulate
With shabby equipment always deteriorating
In the general mess of imprecision of feeling,
Undisciplined squads of emotion. And what there is to conquer
By strength and submission, has already been discovered
Once or twice, or several times, by men whom one cannot hope
To emulate...
TS Eliot, "East Coker" |
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