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| James Toews Member Joined Mar 31, 2006 362 posts |
 To Pay or Not To Pay |
Posted Jan 21, 2010; 7:15 pm |
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It’s been 23 years since I graduated from seminary and the idea that paid pastors would become a thing of the past has gently [in spite of radical claims] ebbed and flowed several times during this period. I don’t know what data is about more or less paid pastors- but my observation is that in that period a huge shift to more paid pastoral leadership.
IMO our theology of pastoral leadership should put the paid/unpaid into perspective. We hold to the priesthood of all believers, which means that our roles in the body are different and distinct, but that we are all equally ministers. [BTW my father was a farmer who was an unpaid pastor. I have the deepest admiration for how he fulfilled his roles but this also dispenses with any idealism that might be associated with “unpaid.”]
This theology implies that the question of pay is purely pragmatic. There is no more reason to pay [or not pay] pastors than to pay [or not pay] janitors. If they have time to fulfill a role and earn a living- why pay them? If not- and we expect their time at our disposal and want clean bathrooms, we will have to pay them. If we want to clean our own bathrooms and we like listening to sermons delivered by truck drivers or lawyers, great.
BTW, because of our theology of pastoral leadership we have a very ambivalent understanding and practice around ordination. The fact that we do ordain at all creates all kinds of confusion- most importantly in our own theology.
Placing a theology/model of church leadership in the top 10 is very appropriate. I think we have confused ourselves on this one :) There are all kinds of pitfall that come when we become disconnected from the Kingdom principle of the priesthood of all believers. |
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| Len Member Joined Nov 7, 2007 255 posts Location: Kelowna, BC |
| stipends, etc |
Posted Jan 21, 2010; 10:56 pm |
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james, thanks, I think you make it clear that this is a complex issue that is entangled with theology, culture, history etc. Thats important.
Clearly also, the professionalization of ministry and the culture of consumption we live in has greatly complicated the issue. It has just become way too easy to pay people to do things we all should be doing, or to provide "religious services" so we can sit back and "absorb." Change is needed but its not going to be a linear "just do this" or "turn here" issue.
In a recent interview Hauerwas stated "Leadership can’t be abstracted from the communities that make it possible." And maybe that is one place to begin.. how do we work against the abstraction of ministry from its contexts? Your point about dropping ordination into an ethos of priesthood is an example, and we have done this in many other ways so that our current reality is a "patchwork" of stuff that is not a pretty quilt anymore..
But oh man,.,. the rabbit hole is deep... |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2833 posts |
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Posted Jan 22, 2010; 11:19 am |
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len posted - | Quote: | | And practically speaking the time for paying salaries to people to lead us is passing away. Tentmaking is going to become very common. In a way its a return to our roots. |
Hmmm, thats not how it is working in our church and many I know of yet. I have a relative that is 1 of 18 full time pastors in their local assembly. We are just hiring a third full time, paid pastor also. Our culture is quite accustomed to have 'professional' people doing things for them that they either feel unqualified to do or have other priorities where they want to spend their time. The majority of local assembly attenders, I believe, are willing to provide the funding to see this continue. But with their financial contributions there is an expectation for quality work that suits what that congregation expects in output and if the leader does not fit in, another will be sought.
One thing that I think might be the downturn of mega churches is whether or not they can keep up with the entertainment levels of the world and if their messages are going to continue to be what people want to hear that suits their concepts of being in this world. And at what point will people quit believing in things like God expects us all to be healthy and wealthy. However, as in the entertainment world, new ways of appealing to the flesh continue to be developed and I suspect the local assemblies will follow quite close maintaining some form of godliness that relates to a carnal form of Christanity.
What might have some negative impact on mega churches is a tighter economy where they can no longer get the financial support to operate these institutions. I think some folk have left these institutions as they don't see the funds being spent wisely and/or are just not keen on giving what is expected to keep these operating. I know of some house church people that basically want an assembly that doesn't have such a negative impact on their pocketbooks like these institutions require. Their spending priorities do not include having a big fancy institution with cafe and all kinds of comforts where they spend one hour a week.
But although I have my doubts about tentmaking becoming common, I can believe that a remnant will once again see all these shortcomings with churchianity and return to certain NT practises. I just haven't see the masses that call themselves Christian ready to give that much time and effort into their commitment to the Lord. At this point they will pay to primarily be a spectator.
Personally, I don't have any problem with fully paid priests ministering in areas that require this level of involvement. My concerns are more about where they are expected to spend this time. IMO, we require too much attention to our own care and need to release the full paids more out into the greater community to show the rest of us the way to love our neighbour as ourselves. And I'm not sure for myself how long I will remain with an institution that is primarily self focused.
Anyway, need a coffee and more preparation for Sunday Growth Group. |
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| Len Member Joined Nov 7, 2007 255 posts Location: Kelowna, BC |
| consumers |
Posted Jan 22, 2010; 12:30 pm |
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When we work with churches at FORGE one of the first questions we ask the lead team is this:
"What are you doing that is unwittingly producing consumers?"
Also, just a footnote, the Lausanne Committee for World Evangelization released their "Occasional Paper" No. 30 in october, 2004. The title is "The Local Church in Mission" and the paper devotes a huge percentage of space to "tentmaking." It may seem distant when viewed from some contexts, but as Hughes says in AVIATOR... its the way of the future.. the way of the future ;) |
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| Len Member Joined Nov 7, 2007 255 posts Location: Kelowna, BC |
| leadership in turbulent times |
Posted Jan 22, 2010; 1:00 pm |
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I was about to make a post on sodality vs modality and how we have shrunk the leadership diversity of Eph 4 to one role: sola pastora.
But.. let's start a new thread to talk about leading in these transitional times.
I suggest anyone who wants to participate read an article by Margaret Wheatley by this title..
Found here: http://www.margaretwheatley.com/writing.html
I suggest.. "What is Our Role in Creating Change" or "Why We Need New Ways of Thinking"
by the way there are many outstanding articles here.
Ok, new thread opening... under DISCUSS ANYTHING |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2833 posts |
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Posted Jan 22, 2010; 2:44 pm |
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Re: tentmaking - | Quote: | | It may seem distant when viewed from some contexts, but as Hughes says in AVIATOR... its the way of the future.. the way of the future ;) |
Well, it better hurry up as it will be less than 3 years before the end of the world - December 21, 2012. 
Anyway I like that question - "What are you doing that is unwittingly producing consumers?"
IMO to get away from being consumers to ministers there must be something that motivates people beyond the benefits there are in consuming. We are being brain washed every day in our culture to serve self and avoid sacrifice wherever possible unless there is something to personally gain from it. And although I hear some faithful preaching in the half hour on Sunday morning that the walk of faith is one of denying self and taking up one's cross, it impacts few to minister. Additionally, some of the 'ministering' opportunities that are suggested end up being quite self serving. They pre-dominantly serve the local congregation. When the appeal to serve is outside the church walls, few show up.
So, just telling (preaching at) people to be disciples does not make disciples. Telling them to love God will not make them actually love God. Do we really believe and teach that we must die to self and embrace sacrificial living to enter into abundant living here and now ? Do we have examples/testimonies in our assemblies that proves this to be true ? Is this so attractive that it motivates others to join in ?
I am puzzled about what is the core thought(s) that would motivate people away from consuming to ministries. I think guilt is often used to suggest to people that they are not really fully surrendered and/or committed and/or love God but this has little lasting impact, IMO.
Anyway, I'm curious what others think should be the main motivator. Often people will say 'it is more love for Christ' and I don't disagree. But what brings that about ? IMO, the church has a heart condition that first needs fixing and I include myself in this state before we throw out the baby with the bath water.Thoughts anyone ? |
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| gay lynn voth Member Joined Jan 25, 2005 693 posts |
| quick comments |
Posted Jan 22, 2010; 4:07 pm |
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Len, a few days ago you asked about the possiblity of an 'online' theology cafe ... I think forum is all I have the time for these days. I just want to respond quickly to two points, one of which you raised recently: "I suggest.. "What is Our Role in Creating Change" or "Why We Need New Ways of Thinking."
I look forward to reading these articles by Margaret Wheatley as I have the opportunity, but in the meantime, I was wondering: What kind of new way of thinking do we need? Is this an epistemological question per se (an actual new way of using our minds) or a new way of "thinking about thinking"?
I appreciate the conversation here and wanted to respond to Dave's questions/ comments as well since I have valued his contribution. Dave asked: | Quote: | As I follow the discussion here, I'm wondering how theological method figures into our diversity on many subjects (e.g. evangelism as proclamation or embodiment). How do MB's view theology and its role? I suspect we would get a varied response to this question. It would be interesting to have theological method on the diagram Len provided and I could have perhaps included it on my list.
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These are very relevant questions from my perspective. I think we discussed some ideas about theology with Thursday which was helpful for me. By the way, where are you Thursday?  I look forward to hearing from you again ... |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2833 posts |
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| dwark Member Joined Feb 8, 2008 42 posts Location: Port Coquitlam, BC |
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Posted Jan 23, 2010; 11:35 am |
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Hey James, thanks for sharing your perspective and experience. In my brief time as an MB pastor, I've already noticed a definite variety in views on ordination, which I think just points to an underlying issue which you raise - how we believe, articulate, and practice the priesthood of all believers. Complex issue IMO.
Sudsy said:
| Quote: | So, just telling (preaching at) people to be disciples does not make disciples. Telling them to love God will not make them actually love God. Do we really believe and teach that we must die to self and embrace sacrificial living to enter into abundant living here and now ? Do we have examples/testimonies in our assemblies that proves this to be true ? Is this so attractive that it motivates others to join in ? ... what brings that about ?
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Good questions and I agree simply preaching a guilt ridden message from the pulpit won't work. But I think the trend of questioning our professionalization of ministry isn't something that can be created or motivated in people. While it can be encouraged from leaders, it needs to come from the ground up - which reflects the spirit of this type of leadership anyway. And while you're right to question if this has caught on yet, I think as more new leaders of this less-hierarchical mold enter church leadership, change may become more visible. The obvious issue, unfortunately, is if the new leaders will see such change as possible. If they don't, they will find a home elsewhere.
Len said: | Quote: | | "What are you doing that is unwittingly producing consumers?" |
Great question!
Thanks Gay Lynn. I'll check out your conversation with Thursday. |
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| Len Member Joined Nov 7, 2007 255 posts Location: Kelowna, BC |
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Posted Jan 23, 2010; 12:56 pm |
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gay lynn, btw want to chime in to affirm the retreat direction. We need more of these opportunities in these strange transitional times. As Brueggemann put it, "the space for imagination to expand is inversely proportional to the speed at which we live." And as someone else opined, "in modernity, speed is violence."
re: new thinking. Einstein said, "The kind of thinking that will generate solutions will be of a different order than the kind of thinking that created the problems" or something like that.
Or attributed to JP Getty: "In times of rapid change, experience is our worst enemy."
In these strange new times, stakes are high and so is our worry -- we tend to take what we know and apply it in a blanket manner to new problems. We assume that a problem is a problem. Give me teh calculator and lets go.
Nuh-uh.. Works fine in conventional situations. But when we face living systems and adaptive needs, we have to make the map as we go. Requires different capacities and requires us to leverage networks of knowledge. Probably the best short introduction to complexity and the requirements for "disturbing the system" (no more linearity of cause and effect) relative to the missional needs of our context is Roxburgh, "The Sky is Falling: Leaders Lost in Transition." The best GENERAL introduction is "Surfing the Edge of Chaos."
Short post on my blog yesterday summarizes two types of structure: designed and emergent.
http://nextreformation.com/?p=2889 |
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| Len Member Joined Nov 7, 2007 255 posts Location: Kelowna, BC |
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Posted Jan 23, 2010; 12:58 pm |
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| <-- There is no balloon.. |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2833 posts |
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Posted Jan 23, 2010; 2:28 pm |
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I believe whatever changes are required for ministry in our 21st Century and in our culture, that the Holy Spirit will reveal these in His timing. I don't think we need to worry about being too fast or too slow or whether to pay or not to pay or how the structures may change but rather to trust that God will move His church forward and to be sure we are in-tune and lead by the Spirit. Perhaps fewer books on what do and more time spent in prayer. Seems to me, at times, man's statements are given more clout than the scriptures.
I believe empowered, servant leaders will be those who are really encountering God in their daily lives and God will raise them up with or without formal training. I don't think we are intended to figure it all out ahead of time for we walk by faith and it is important to step out by faith as the Holy Spirit prompts us. God has provided effective leadership examples before in history and I believe He will do it again. And He often does it with people we may not think qualified. He is the giver of the gifts and abilities required to do His work. We are co-worker's with God in His work as He wishes for us to go about it. And God is not limited to any one method or concept we may have of ministry.
So, I believe the greatest need today is close relationship with God to know His voice, trust Him and obey without questioning when He speaks. With this kind of relationship and obedience I believe we will have the discernment to know what other voices are not originating from His thoughts. I don't always have this discernment at this point but I believe it possible to have. I believe that if I acknowledge Him in all my ways, then He will direct my paths. |
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| Len Member Joined Nov 7, 2007 255 posts Location: Kelowna, BC |
| devotion |
Posted Jan 23, 2010; 3:53 pm |
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sudsy
Jesus said somewhere, "I bear them witness they have a zeal for God.. but it is without knowledge."
See.. we need both head and heart in this... to love God with all we are.
Or as an old dead guy put it, in an obvious reference to Scripture..
What is knowledge without love?
It puffs up.
What is love without knowledge?
It goes astray.
Bernard of Clairvaux
The danger for those of us who study is taht we trust in our knowledge more than in God.
The danger for those who don't study is that they become pietists, gnostics, thinking the Spirit will compensate for their lack of effort.
May God make us those who love with knowledge.
[EDIT]
btw, I totally agree that the Spirit will teach us what we need to know..
And that is why I referenced the books above.. Roxburgh, Alan Hirsch, Mike Frost, Colin Greene, NT Wright and even many "secular" teachers like Senge, Wheatley.. are hearing the voice of the Spirit. Moses knew what to take from Egypt .. and what to leave behind because he was tuned in.
Last edited by Len on Jan 23, 2010; 5:09 pm; edited 1 time in total. |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2833 posts |
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Posted Jan 23, 2010; 4:51 pm |
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| Len, perhaps you can explain the 'no balloon' thing to me. I never understood what your avatar represented. |
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| Len Member Joined Nov 7, 2007 255 posts Location: Kelowna, BC |
| LOL |
Posted Jan 23, 2010; 5:10 pm |
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| So.. you maybe haven't seen "The Matrix?" |
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