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| rebs New member Joined Jan 13, 2010 3 posts Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba |
 unsure about "punishment" language |
Posted Mar 11, 2010; 2:47 pm |
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I have been reading through this thread and have been quite enjoying the debate. I have appreciated this thread - it has helped me to better understand some of the different atonement models, and why this issue matters so much to some. I have also appreciated the humility and Christian love demonstrated here. I don't have much to add to the conversation, and I'll admit to being a little intimidated by the depth and breadth of knowledge present, but I would like to return to a an earlier comment by Sudsy:
| Quote: | I do believe God requires punishment for sin. God proved throughout history and stated in scripture that sin has wages.
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The concept of sin was presented to me as a child/youth as rule-breaking. So I carried around a list of seemingly arbitrary rules made at random by a distant and angry God which I constantly broke and never lived up to, no matter how I tried. That picture doesn't make much sense to me.
What if instead the natural consequence/"wages" of sin is "death"/separation from God. I think sin is, at its foundation, us saying, "I know better how to run my life than my Creator". I feel like this is what Adam and Eve and the apple represent - we as humans want to selfishly and foolishly be our own masters/gods. By doing so we separate ourselves from God (of our own choice!) never grasping that apart from God there is death/nothingness because HE IS the Creator and Sustainer of all things. If we choose to part from him, we quite simply choose non-being.
But instead of leaving us ridiculous beings alone, he chose to reconcile himself to us!
| Quote: | | 2 Corinthians 5: 18-21 (emphasis mine): All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God |
Does this make sense, or do you think I'm way off base? |
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| roadrunning Member Joined May 9, 2008 315 posts |
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Posted Mar 11, 2010; 3:35 pm |
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Hello rebs ... you wrote | Quote: | But instead of leaving us ridiculous beings alone, he chose to reconcile himself to us!
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2 Corinthians 5: 18-21 (emphasis mine): All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God
Does this make sense, or do you think I'm way off base? |
Makes sense to me.  Thanks for sharing your perspective. I have experienced God as 'pursuing me with kindness' even through the tough times when I have chosen alienation. Perhaps this personal experience of God has shaped my theological opinion but I continue to pray that God will likewise pursue those who presently are 'afar from him'. Oh, the love of God is greater far ... As the apostle Paul states so emphatically - May we be ambassadors of this marvelous reconcilation - imploring others from a stance of love and great affection. |
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| James Toews Member Joined Mar 31, 2006 362 posts |
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Posted Mar 11, 2010; 4:27 pm |
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Preach it, Rebs!
That is an awesome text that I happen to be speaking on this Sunday. Without having connected the text to the above debate- it is a great reminder how multi-faceted the gift of salvation is. |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2833 posts |
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Posted Mar 11, 2010; 6:23 pm |
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Hi rebs, good to have you aboard.
| Quote: | | Does this make sense, or do you think I'm way off base? |
I don't think you are way off base. I especially like your input on the ministry of reconciliation. I do not see eye to eye with you on the wages of sin being just a choice for 'non-being' or 'nothingness' but neither do I see eye to eye with those who believe in never ending torment as punishment for the sin of an unbeliever.
| Quote: | | The concept of sin was presented to me as a child/youth as rule-breaking. So I carried around a list of seemingly arbitrary rules made at random by a distant and angry God which I constantly broke and never lived up to, no matter how I tried. That picture doesn't make much sense to me. |
Yes, this concept of God and sin does not make sense to me either. But a God who is personal, loving and just and who will not only save us from our sin and it's penalties but will empower us to live holy lives, makes much sense to me.
I'm curious though as to how one implores people with the ministry of reconciliation if the only consequence of sin is choosing to live without God and physical death is the end. Scripture says that there is pleasure in sin and I agree from experience, so why give up some of this pleasure and be reconciled to God if there is no final judgment and reaping for what we sow ? This is what some of my unsaved friends want to believe and they would rather 'eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die'. Without any significant penalty to face for sin, I think they have a good point.
I believe this text in Corinthians is a good one and am curious to hear James message. I believe it is a message about love and reconciliation that we have as Christ ambassadors. His love saves us from having our sins counted against us if we accept His free gift. |
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| Kenneth Affleck Member Joined Oct 7, 2008 33 posts Location: New Westminster, BC |
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Posted Mar 12, 2010; 4:42 am |
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Hi Rebbs
That was good theology; but when you said "If we choose to part from him, we quite simply choose non-being", I would need some clarification. If you mean that unbelievers simply cease to exist when they die, then that would contradict some clear teachings in Scripture (Mark 9:44-48). Even though the concept of eternal suffering in hell is repulsive, I have to believe it. |
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| Marshall Member Joined Feb 7, 2002 1191 posts Location: Langley, BC |
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Posted Mar 12, 2010; 11:08 am |
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Welcome here Rebs!
Kenneth, keep in mind that in the passage you referenced, Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66. If you look up that passage to see the context of the imagery, you'll see that it is dead bodies being consumed by flames and worms, not living beings. My own view is that all will be raised to face judgement, but the ultimate fate of those who don't receive eternal life in communion with God will be the second death. There is no life apart from God's presence; to reject God is ultimately to reject existence.
There are of course verses that seem to point in different directions (just as you have acknowledged that there are different images used to portray atonement, such as ransom), but there are no shortage of passages whose face-value meaning seems to be accord better with ultimate destruction than eternal conscious torment. These include practically every passage using the words "destruction", "perish" or "die" in this context, along with all the references to "eternal life" being a gift of God and not a natural property of human souls.
Further, the verses most supportive of eternal torment are found in portions of the Bible that are more evidently symbolic (such as Revelation or a parable), and often their immediate context allows a different meaning that accords well with the rest of Scripture. For instance, John tells us that the lake of fire is the second death (Revelation 20:14; 21:8) in much the same way as he tells us the seven lampstands are seven churches (Revelation 1:20). I think it's a similar mistake to insist that the second death is the metaphor and the lake of torment is the reality as to insist that churches are really lampstands!  |
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| Neto Member Joined Feb 2, 2005 254 posts Location: Holmes County, Ohio |
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Posted Mar 12, 2010; 3:43 pm |
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| Marshall wrote: | | I think it's a similar mistake to insist that the second death is the metaphor and the lake of torment is the reality as to insist that churches are really lampstands! |
That must be why I have a hard time finding a church when in a strange city….. |
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| rebs New member Joined Jan 13, 2010 3 posts Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba |
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Posted Mar 13, 2010; 11:32 am |
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Thanks Marshall, for articulating this so well! I agree!
Sudsy, I too have encountered this problem. On the other hand, I also have a non-Christian friend who is terrified of death because she believes there is no after-life, and she can't stand the thought of nothingness as her ultimate future. So I think both eternal punishment and nothingness are scary ideas.
I don't much have a taste for scaring people 'into the kingdom'. It seems to me that a true relationship cannot be based on fear, and I believe God would be saddened by that. I also think that while this was a successful tactic of many 'fire and brimstone' revival preachers back in the day, this simply will not work in our present culture.
My observation about my friends who have this attitude is that pleasure does not equal contentment or happiness. Many of my friends are unhappy, or are mostly happy but feel empty or purposeless in some way. All I can do is point to the incredible invitation that Jesus offers - he has come that we might have life and life to the full! This to me is huge misconception 'out there' - how can we instead show (by words, but also by our works) that following Christ isn't about all those great things you have to give up, it's about true life. |
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| Neto Member Joined Feb 2, 2005 254 posts Location: Holmes County, Ohio |
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Posted Mar 13, 2010; 6:09 pm |
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| rebs wrote: | | I don't much have a taste for scaring people 'into the kingdom'. It seems to me that a true relationship cannot be based on fear, and I believe God would be saddened by that. |
Your comment along these lines got me to thinking about what other less than ideal reasons for entering the kingdom might be common. I recall reading a church growth book (I believe it was that little book by George McGavern, but I can’t quite think of the title – maybe something about bridges, like maybe “Bridges of God”?) back in the 70’s that reported on a study that had been conducted in India. When people asked to become Christians, they asked them why. Some said it was so that their children could go to the missionary school (this was a misconception – it was not required that the parents be Christians), etc. Then they talked to those same people some 10 or 15 years later. They discovered that in terms of where these people were as believers later, it mattered little WHY they originally became Christians – it was the teaching they had received in those intervening years that made the difference as to whether they were continuing on as believers, or if they had turned back, or “stagnated”. |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2833 posts |
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Posted Mar 13, 2010; 7:40 pm |
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rebs posted - | Quote: | | I also think that while this was a successful tactic of many 'fire and brimstone' revival preachers back in the day, this simply will not work in our present culture. |
Here I must disagree as, for one example, I have first hand knowledge of a friend who uses this method of evangelism and leads many people to Christ. However, he can talk about what he believes to be the scriptural description of judgment and hell and also about the love of God who has made a way of escape. This is not my preferred way of evangelism but IMO, it works to point some people to the seriousness of neglecting so great a salvation.
| Quote: | | All I can do is point to the incredible invitation that Jesus offers - he has come that we might have life and life to the full! This to me is huge misconception 'out there' - how can we instead show (by words, but also by our works) that following Christ isn't about all those great things you have to give up, it's about true life. |
rebs, that is a great question! I think we really need to face up to the fact that many unbelievers look at the life of many Christians and do not see this full or abundant living. I confess myself that my life is not anything outstanding that makes people want what I have. But God isn't through with me yet.
My conclusion to this question is that most of us know very little of the abundant life Christ has provided for us. We still have too much of a foot in this world. And so, many who are told, for instance, to say a 'sinner's prayer' and you will enter this new realm of living, find out that, after the initial excitement wore off, life just got tougher than before.
I do believe in an abundant life as a believer but it does not just fall out of the sky, so to speak. There are trials and suffering and pain, etc, etc but if we grow spiritually through spiritual disciplines we can learn little by little what this abundant living is really about. Or we can just stay as baby believers and be quite miserable in many circumstances of life. Many choose the latter and their lives are not appealing to the unsaved.
I think Neto made an important point that certain evangelistic methods may not appear very ideal but whenever people are exposed to the Gospel they may find themselves someday at the foot of the cross. My whole family came to know the Lord through a hell fire type pf preaching. They didn't go through their life fearing a wrathful God but rather lived in thankfulness and appreciation for what God did in love to save them.
Bottom line for me is that I can't save anyone. I can persuade and implore people to turn to Christ but it is the Holy Spirit's work as described in John 16:8 - 'And when he comes, he will convict the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment' NLT. People may not want to hear about judgment and punishment for sin but it is the Spirit that convicts them of these truths. And sometimes, He does this through the most feeble attempts of a believer to witness. God's Word does not return void.
Whoops, making a long post.  |
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| Len Member Joined Nov 7, 2007 255 posts Location: Kelowna, BC |
| anthropology |
Posted Mar 19, 2010; 1:02 pm |
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I read "most" of the thread.. good discussion :)
Last night I was reading alan hirsch new book "Untamed." It's more a narrative and confession than his earlier work. And in the last section he comments that the first and greatest truth is not "I am a sinner" but rather, "I am made in the image of God." And it hit me that I share this conviction. And I wonder how often it influences discussions like this as a background assumptive outside our awareness. I am thinking of the spin Dallas Willard made on this some years back in his book or article (not sure which) "The gospel of sin management."
I too have questions about the nature and extent of "retribution" as a function of the atonement.
And more broadly, among our Metro community, which is composed half of "normies" and half of street people, homeless, and addicted persons, I am struck not by the magnitude of our differences but rather by how insignificant they are. Honestly, it is sometimes a little stunning when a brother who has been a believer for twenty years might stand up at our open mike and preach morality.. and a brother who is homeless because of his addictions will get up and describe how the Spirit of God met him last night in a gentle yet powerful way. The poor have taught me much about the grace of God.
It reminds me of some of the writing of Jean Vanier or Henri Nouwen. The world is not divided between the secure and insecure, as if those who live in houses are secure and those who have no place to rest their head are insecure: often those who have much are the most anxiety filled. The world is divided into two houses: the house of love and the house of fear.
Does this connect at all or am I totally missing this boat? At least some of the implications of our over-attention to sin (and the response of moralism) are spelled out here..
http://www.outofur.com/archives/2010/03/who_are_the_dec.html |
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| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
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Posted Mar 19, 2010; 2:00 pm |
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| Quote: | It reminds me of some of the writing of Jean Vanier or Henri Nouwen. The world is not divided between the secure and insecure, as if those who live in houses are secure and those who have no place to rest their head are insecure: often those who have much are the most anxiety filled. The world is divided into two houses: the house of love and the house of fear.
Does this connect at all or am I totally missing this boat? |
I connect with your post Len – thanks for your thoughts.
Interesting, sentence: | Quote: | | the first and greatest truth is not "I am a sinner" but rather, "I am made in the image of God." |
Or course we could say, I am a sinner made in the image of God or conversely I am made in the image of God and am a sinner, or perhaps: I am a marred image of God due to sin. Do we have to always prioritize everything?
| Quote: | | Those with much are often the most anxious |
True: and we in the west have much.
I watched Leonard Cohen being interviewed after his financial fortune was emptied out by a fraudster. And thought, if he is a good Buddhist it shouldn’t matter to him. And that’s basically what he said. Of course a year or so later, he’s on the road again singing for his supper.
| Quote: | | The world divided into the house of love and the house of fear. |
Because of my profession I know where many of the sex-offenders live in my direct nieghbourhood and beyond; I know who and where some of the gangsters are. Many in my profession have a heightened sense of evil – we watch our kids. My wife and I have a plan for what to do in the mall if/when we see people I know (I tell her to just keep walking – while I stop to say hi).
I like what you’ve written about your ½ + ½ congregation. Normal is a setting on my washing machine (I think that sentence comes out of the addictions field).
The world divided into the house of love and house of fear. What about sheep + goats? Both are true.
Quick 'flow of conciousness' thoughts - I hope they aren't too random. |
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| Len Member Joined Nov 7, 2007 255 posts Location: Kelowna, BC |
| fear |
Posted Mar 19, 2010; 4:09 pm |
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WC, thanks :) The world does seem to be a fearful place. I confess I live with a level of anxiety most days. But I believe Jesus calls us to live in a different world.
We say... and often sing.. that this is GOD's world.. that he is in control. I wonder if I really believe this?
SOmeone has remarked that the single saying of Jesus that appears most often in the gospels is this : FEAR NOT.
Sometimes I wonder if even our theology is impacted by fear. We need to label everything. We need to know exactly where we stand. We need to know who is in and who is out. (The classic.. Paul Hiebert.. bounded set vs centered set). I suspect a lot of this is driven by fear. I suspect I became a writer and went to so many years of seminary because, in part, I was looking for a sense of control. But control .. and the obsessive need for it.. is just another kind of addiction.
We divide the world in sacred and secular, have and have not, good and evil. I suspect it is way more complicated than that. These days I don't feel very safe in large shiny churches. Oddly, I feel very safe in our relatively small, chaotic, crazy sunday meetings. There is a level of honesty and transparency among people who can't hide their brokenness. maybe they would if they could.. but they simply can't.
Jesus radically entered this crazy, unsafe world. he was radically vulnerable. he hung out with the wrong people, and got a bad reputation as a result. True religion? |
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| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
| Re: fear |
Posted Mar 19, 2010; 5:41 pm |
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| Len wrote: | | Sometimes I wonder if even our theology is impacted by fear. We need to label everything. We need to know exactly where we stand. We need to know who is in and who is out. (The classic.. Paul Hiebert.. bounded set vs centered set). I suspect a lot of this is driven by fear. I suspect I became a writer and went to so many years of seminary because, in part, I was looking for a sense of control. But control .. and the obsessive need for it.. is just another kind of addiction. |
Agreed, some theologies are impacted by fear. imo some emergent musings sounds naïve - but thats another bunny trail.
imo, some Christians are naïve and get in over their heads, while others bury their heads in the sand about the evil within their midst.
On a good day i like to think i have a healthy awareness of the reality of evil and evil persons.
The world is a fearful place [edited: perhaps the better way to phrase this would be: there is evil in the world.....]- we can live in and walk with hope with our eyes open |
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| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
| a few more random thougths |
Posted Mar 19, 2010; 10:54 pm |
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| Quote: | | The world does seem to be a fearful place. I confess I live with a level of anxiety most days. But I believe Jesus calls us to live in a different world |
I believe Jesus calls us to live in the real world.
| Quote: | | Sometimes I wonder if even our theology is impacted by fear. We need to label everything. We need to know exactly where we stand. We need to know who is in and who is out. |
Perhaps its enough to know that God knows who is in and who is out. |
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