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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2902 posts |
 Overcoming the Flesh |
Posted Feb 8, 2010; 4:18 pm |
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Scripture teaches us that as believers we continue to have a war going on within us where our flesh is at war with the Holy Spirit who lives within us. In the attached sermon 'the flesh' is explained as - 'The flesh is the ego which feels an emptiness and uses the resources in its own power to try to fill it.' 'The flesh prefers to use the legalistic or licentious resources in its own power to fill its emptiness'.
IMO, this is the area of greatest challenge, especially in our culture where we are constantly tempted with every kind of fleshly allurement through a growing number of communication devices. In general, I would say that for myself and perhaps for the greater part of Christianity in our culture, we are losing this guerrilla war with 'the flesh' a great deal of the time. I do not expect 'the flesh' to ever give in and surrender completely in this war but I do believe we are not acknowledging the extent of interruption it is having and limiting the effectiveness of the church.
Our pastor recently emphasized that to grow spiritually or to 'walk in the Spirit' involves a steady, daily absorbing of the scriptures. Not just a few minutes of daily devotions but a dedicated pursuit of reading and meditating on God's Word. And yet my guess would be that giving into 'the flesh' caused many Christians to not take up his challenge.
I've been pondering this lately and am concluding that we only will pursue something that initially requires pain and uncomfortableness if we really believe in the end benefit. I recall the pain I went through in sports to reach a certain goal and it was that goal that carried me through all the pain. So, is it that we do not pursue godliness and the initial pain to establish spiritual disciplines because we lack a belief in what it will produce in our lives ? Do we know few, if any, real examples of abundant living believers that we want lives like theirs ? Do we even believe that a Spirit controlled life provides more satisfaction than anything we can get through satisfying fleshly desires ?
I think some of us have settled for a form of Christianity that is far below the abundant life that God makes available for all of us. And therefore, the light that we should be shining by such a life, is very dim. I certainly am including myself in this category but I also include others as I really don't see much of this type of abundant Christianity being lived out today.
So, I am interested in knowing what others think in this area. This link is a Piper sermon on this topic and Piper concludes with - 'I say to you brothers and sisters, walk by the Spirit and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. You will have victory over temptation and know the guidance of the Lord if you keep your heart happy in God by resting in his promises.' Do you agree ? Have you proven this to be true in your life ?
http://www.soundofgrace.com/piper83/061983m.htm |
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| Neto Member Joined Feb 2, 2005 288 posts Location: Holmes County, Ohio |
| Re: Overcoming the Flesh |
Posted Feb 12, 2010; 11:00 am |
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| Sudsy wrote: | Scripture teaches us that as believers we continue to have a war going on within us where our flesh is at war with the Holy Spirit who lives within us. In the attached sermon 'the flesh' is explained as - 'The flesh is the ego which feels an emptiness and uses the resources in its own power to try to fill it.' 'The flesh prefers to use the legalistic or licentious resources in its own power to fill its emptiness'.
IMO, this is the area of greatest challenge, especially in our culture where we are constantly tempted with every kind of fleshly allurement through a growing number of communication devices. In general, I would say that for myself and perhaps for the greater part of Christianity in our culture, we are losing this guerrilla war with 'the flesh' a great deal of the time. I do not expect 'the flesh' to ever give in and surrender completely in this war but I do believe we are not acknowledging the extent of interruption it is having and limiting the effectiveness of the church.
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I've been pondering this lately and am concluding that we only will pursue something that initially requires pain and uncomfortableness if we really believe in the end benefit. ….. Do we even believe that a Spirit controlled life provides more satisfaction than anything we can get through satisfying fleshly desires ? |
I'll take the risk of people thinking I'm really terrible, and say that I’m not sure it does, in the short-term. I think that if it did, we would not be ‘tempted’ by temptation. It is in the awareness of the eternal nature of ourselves that we look beyond the appeal of the now, to the then. It is the hope of complete salvation - transformation - that keeps us persevering, to be overcomers. |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2902 posts |
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Posted Feb 12, 2010; 12:29 pm |
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Neto posted - | Quote: | | I'll take the risk of people thinking I'm really terrible, and say that I’m not sure it does, in the short-term. I think that if it did, we would not be ‘tempted’ by temptation. It is in the awareness of the eternal nature of ourselves that we look beyond the appeal of the now, to the then. It is the hope of complete salvation - transformation - that keeps us persevering, to be overcomers. |
Neto, I'm disappointed and thought of you more saintly.   Thanks, brother, for the reply.
Just to be sure I understand you correctly when you say 'I'm not sure it does' that you are referring to the idea that 'the Spirit controlled life provides more satisfaction than anything we can get through satisfying fleshly desires' ?
I agree that our hope of future glory is what keeps us persevering through the struggles of life and I don't think we will ever not be free from temptations while here. Jesus wasn't. However, I also read of a delight and joy in the Holy Spirit that gave great satisfaction to some I read about in the early church. When Jesus said He came to give us abundant life, did He not mean this to be here and now ? I believe He did but more in a spiritual sense rather than a material sense.
IMO, one error today is viewing this abundant life to be something that is very materialistic in nature and I don't see that this occurred in the early church. Although many of them endured much in human suffering and little of this world's goods their relationship with God brought them great joy. They had great joy in enduring temptation and persecutions and saw this as a means for spiritual growth. A very different mindset than many have today.
The old song says that if we 'turn our eyes upon Jesus and look full in His wonderful face and the things of this world will grow strangely dim in the light of His glory and grace'. I do think we are experiencing just a taste of Kingdom living here and now but I do believe and for a specific period of a month or so, experienced a time when fleshly desires had no appeal whatsoever and I delighted in God's Word and relationship with Him and other believers. To me, this was an experience of 'walking in the Spirit' and the outcome was that I was not fulfilling the desires of my flesh that would interfere with this walk. My life now is not always walking 'in the Spirit', yet when I do there is no greater satisfaction to my spirit and the temporal desires of the flesh are not appealing.
So, why don't I always walk in the Spirit when this way of life provides so great a joy and fulfillment ? I think one reason is because the allure towards fleshly desires is constantly before me and hard to ignore. Also, these desires can quite quickly and easily be fulfilled even if they are short lived. Also, everybody else is doing it so there is a fleshly desire to 'fit in'. And my flesh likes to be in control and not controlled by anyone else, especially the Holy Spirit. So this war continues every day. I could retreat to a monastery type life of isolation but Jesus did not show us that this was how to live. And I do believe He gave us overcoming power that we must exercise by faith.
Piper puts it 'You will have victory over temptation and know the guidance of the Lord if you keep your heart happy in God by resting in his promises'. I take this to mean filling our minds with God and the promises in His Word. Is this perhaps why so few Christians reflect an 'unspeakable joy' ? We are not delighting in God and walking in the Spirit.
Any other thoughts and/or shared experiences on how you go about walking in the Spirit ? How important do you think spiritual disciplines are to follow and how much time will these take. Or perhaps, you don't believe this fuller dimension of spiritual, abundant living is possible today. Any thoughts, suggestions, anyone ? |
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| Neto Member Joined Feb 2, 2005 288 posts Location: Holmes County, Ohio |
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Posted Feb 12, 2010; 3:52 pm |
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| Sudsy wrote: | Neto posted - | Quote: | | I'll take the risk of people thinking I'm really terrible, and say that I’m not sure it does, in the short-term. I think that if it did, we would not be ‘tempted’ by temptation. It is in the awareness of the eternal nature of ourselves that we look beyond the appeal of the now, to the then. It is the hope of complete salvation - transformation - that keeps us persevering, to be overcomers. |
Neto, I'm disappointed and thought of you more saintly. Thanks, brother, for the reply.
Just to be sure I understand you correctly when you say 'I'm not sure it does' that you are referring to the idea that 'the Spirit controlled life provides more satisfaction than anything we can get through satisfying fleshly desires' ? |
Yes, that is the question I was referring to.
| Quote: | | I agree that our hope of future glory is what keeps us persevering through the struggles of life and I don't think we will ever not be free from temptations while here. Jesus wasn't. However, I also read of a delight and joy in the Holy Spirit that gave great satisfaction to some I read about in the early church. When Jesus said He came to give us abundant life, did He not mean this to be here and now ? I believe He did but more in a spiritual sense rather than a material sense. |
Your comments here remind me of the response of Peter & John when they were taken by the temple guards, and after a scolding and a thrashing, as I recall, they were “rejoicing that they had the privilege to suffer for Christ”. Maybe if we suffered more, we’d be more joyful? I’m not trying to be funny, though it may sound that way. I can think of times when I was going through an opposition of some sort, that I was in better shape spiritually then. Does one cause the other? Do we suffer sometimes because we are spiritually able to suffer, or does the suffering make us experience more spiritual depth?
| Quote: | IMO, one error today is viewing this abundant life to be something that is very materialistic in nature and I don't see that this occurred in the early church. Although many of them endured much in human suffering and little of this world's goods their relationship with God brought them great joy. They had great joy in enduring temptation and persecutions and saw this as a means for spiritual growth. A very different mindset than many have today.
The old song says that if we 'turn our eyes upon Jesus and look full in His wonderful face and the things of this world will grow strangely dim in the light of His glory and grace'. I do think we are experiencing just a taste of Kingdom living here and now but I do believe and for a specific period of a month or so, experienced a time when fleshly desires had no appeal whatsoever and I delighted in God's Word and relationship with Him and other believers. To me, this was an experience of 'walking in the Spirit' and the outcome was that I was not fulfilling the desires of my flesh that would interfere with this walk. My life now is not always walking 'in the Spirit', yet when I do there is no greater satisfaction to my spirit and the temporal desires of the flesh are not appealing. |
Do you remember singing that chorus “If you want joy, you must sing / shout /clap (the different verses) for it!”? I don’t think we ever sang “If you want joy, you must suffer for it!” (That was in the AoG church.)
| Quote: | So, why don't I always walk in the Spirit when this way of life provides so great a joy and fulfillment ? I think one reason is because the allure towards fleshly desires is constantly before me and hard to ignore. Also, these desires can quite quickly and easily be fulfilled even if they are short lived. Also, everybody else is doing it so there is a fleshly desire to 'fit in'. And my flesh likes to be in control and not controlled by anyone else, especially the Holy Spirit. So this war continues every day. I could retreat to a monastery type life of isolation but Jesus did not show us that this was how to live. And I do believe He gave us overcoming power that we must exercise by faith.
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Any other thoughts and/or shared experiences on how you go about walking in the Spirit ? How important do you think spiritual disciplines are to follow and how much time will these take. Or perhaps, you don't believe this fuller dimension of spiritual, abundant living is possible today. Any thoughts, suggestions, anyone ? |
I agree with what I think you are saying here – that spiritual discipline is a very important – probably central – part of holding on to a deep and abundant life in Christ. Unfortunately I can look back to a time when I was better off than I am now. Then I got satisfied. Maybe maintaining spiritual vitality is a bit like trying to keep a balloon blown up that has a tiny hole – if you stop blowing in, it goes flat. The scriptures do say that “out of you shall flow rivers of living water.” A living well is one that has a current – the water is fresh, not just sitting there. Keep it all in, and you’ll explode. There has to be an outlet someplace, or you get stagnant. I do think, however, that sometimes God "takes us off of the front lines” to redefine ourselves as his children (or rather to remember that we are his children). In my own life experience, one of the most difficult times of my life was the period of several years following our return from the mission field, when I had no ministry, no “position”, and felt that I also had no identity. I had (in the midst of the pressures of ministry) fallen into that pit of seeing myself as being what I was to the people to whom I was ministering, instead of seeing who I was (am) to God, to Christ. So (during that time) I was asking him: “what do you want me to do now?” and he was saying, “Just be my child.” I need to constantly come back to that, to not forget that. |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2902 posts |
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Posted Feb 12, 2010; 6:53 pm |
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Neto, great balloon analogy ! I think suffering is a normal part of our human existence. As believers, even more so, as we are to continually deny self (the ego/flesh) and surrender our will to the Spirit. Suffering is a good topic in itself to explore on a separate thread sometime. I believe as the scripture and the song says 'that joy comes in the morning, weeping only lasts for the night'.
Jesus was said to have endured the cross for the joy that was set before Him. He delighted to do the will of the Father, although He showed his humanness in the garden when He asked if there be another way. But then followed that with God's will being most important. He proved the scripture true that the joy of the Lord is our strength. I think as we delight in doing God's will first and foremost and to accept whatever suffering comes our way, we too experience the strength of this joy.
| Quote: | | Maybe if we suffered more, we’d be more joyful? I’m not trying to be funny, though it may sound that way. |
I believe the joy that Jesus had was a love relationship with the Father that gave Him the most happiness in doing the Father's will. Whatever suffering this required took a back seat to His joy in doing God's will. I think Paul and Silas reflected some of this type of joy in prison and others in the book of Acts under great persecution. They were all about doing God's will in spreading the good news. In my experience the believers that reflect the most joy are those who really are happy to do whatever God calls them to do and they are attentive to His voice.
Here's another joy chorus - 'If you want joy, real joy, wonderful joy, let Jesus come into your heart. Your tears he'll wash away. Your night he'll turn to day. Your life he'll make all over anew.' I think we are meant to be obvious examples of joy filled believers. A joy the world can't give nor can it take it away (another chorus). |
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| Neto Member Joined Feb 2, 2005 288 posts Location: Holmes County, Ohio |
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Posted Feb 13, 2010; 7:43 am |
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| Sudsy wrote: | | Jesus was said to have endured the cross for the joy that was set before Him. He delighted to do the will of the Father, although He showed his humanness in the garden when He asked if there be another way. But then followed that with God's will being most important. He proved the scripture true that the joy of the Lord is our strength. I think as we delight in doing God's will first and foremost and to accept whatever suffering comes our way, we too experience the strength of this joy. |
I don't want to detract from the fact that Jesus was fully human, but I tend to think that the thing he shrunk back from was not only the human suffering which he saw before him, but that he would take on the sin of the whole world, our sin, my sin. This was a divine "knee jerk" reaction, the abhorrence of sin as Yahweh himself. |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2902 posts |
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Posted Feb 13, 2010; 11:50 am |
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| Agree. |
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| lornewel Member Joined May 11, 2004 568 posts Location: Abbotsford |
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Posted Feb 13, 2010; 11:51 am |
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This topic of flesh vs Spirit for believers is one I have a hard time to reconcile (a) the scriptures with each other, and (b) my own experiences with the scriptural declarations. Take Galatians 5 as an example of apparent "contradiction" within one small passage:
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
In this epistle, Paul writes to the Galatian believers using some of the strongest language in all of his epistles to disabuse them of the idea that, having begun in the Spirit, they can somehow live on as believers by keeping the law. But in the short portion of chapter 5 I have quoted, it seems to say that those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh and its desires, but at the same time says the flesh is very much alive, fighting against the spirit. So much so that we cannot (always) do the good things our new nature inclines us to do. If the flesh is crucified (and dead things have no life and power), why is it necessary to exhort believers who live in the Spirit to also walk in the Spirit? It must be possible to be born of the Spirit and still not walk in the Spirit, and be subject to some fleshly actions. My own experience is just that. I can really relate to the one fighting against the other. I can't relate to the flesh being crucified, dead and gone. Oh, and as for the list Paul gives of the acts of the flesh which are evident, or as other versions say, manifest, obvious...my downfall is with the ones that are not so manifest, like selfish ambitions (which can be dressed up as unselfish) "and the like."
If, in Christ, I am actually dead to sin as He is, why do I have to "reckon" myself as such? Romans 6:11
Is this some more of the "already but not yet" stuff of being a pilgirm and sojourner? |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2902 posts |
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Posted Feb 13, 2010; 4:36 pm |
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| Quote: | | Is this some more of the "already but not yet" stuff of being a pilgrim and sojourner? |
I suppose it could be looked at this way. However, I believe we have the authority and power now to overcome any sin.
What I believe is that in my unregenerate state I was a slave to sin. I did sinful things because the power to not do them was not within my abilities. To some extent I could chose right from wrong but I was limited to my own human strength to do so and this slavery didn't allow me to even follow my conscience at all times.
But I was delivered from this slavery by dying to sin's control over me. Sin now no longer has the legal right to force me into its slavery state. In that sense, I am dead to sin. Christ paid my sin debt and broke sin’s power over me. I am 'dead to sin' and 'crucified with Christ' so in Christ I have died to the power of sin so that I no longer want to continue in sin. Sin is no longer my master. I now am under no compulsion to live under the control of the sinful nature again.
But I must chose to use this authority and power to say no to sin. I must regard or reckon myself as dead to sin and chose to walk in the Spirit and experience this power over sin. I think this is very important because if we consider ourselves to be still 'so fallen' in nature, because we do sin, we may not live by faith in the overcoming power we have to resist sin.
When I look at the Galatian 5 list of what are the works of the flesh, it ends that list with 'and the like' which I take to mean all similar manifestations of ungodliness. I believe the Holy Spirit points out when we are being 'fleshly' if we are listening. In my experience, when He does, I sometimes chose to ignore Him and give way to what my flesh wants. I think if we ignore Him enough we may grieve Him and then we will have to learn the hard way. I'm quite familiar with doing that.  |
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| James Toews Member Joined Mar 31, 2006 405 posts |
| Another Voice |
Posted Feb 13, 2010; 6:03 pm |
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Hi all
Interesting and very practical topic, Sudsy. I’m sitting in Calgary airport coming home from a Mennonite Disaster Service AGM. I spent the last 2 days rubbing shoulders and sharing meals with Neto’s people- the “other” Mennonites [many of them very conservative Anabaptists from the eastern US]. What a group of amazing people- so different from us in so many visible ways. [ie women with head coverings and men in old fashioned suits.]
These people generally have different approach to this question than most of us. They practice a theology that says, “What you are doing is what you believe. The solution to the problem of the flesh is to do the right things.” I would bet that they refer to the text - | Quote: | | But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. James 2:18 |
They, of course, have their substantial problems as well, but I was struck as I watched them deliberate, teach and pray- how we need their voice among us. If you ever have a chance to spend time in this world- take it. [Conversely- they probably need to hear from us talking/typing based Christians as well. It is the classic of killing 2 birds with one stone.]
And Neto thanks for reminding me of this world every time I read one of your posts. |
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| Neto Member Joined Feb 2, 2005 288 posts Location: Holmes County, Ohio |
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Posted Feb 15, 2010; 2:23 pm |
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| lornewel wrote: | …. Take Galatians 5 as an example of apparent "contradiction" within one small passage ….
… it seems to say that those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh and its desires, but at the same time says the flesh is very much alive, fighting against the spirit. So much so that we cannot (always) do the good things our new nature inclines us to do. If the flesh is crucified (and dead things have no life and power), why is it necessary to exhort believers who live in the Spirit to also walk in the Spirit? It must be possible to be born of the Spirit and still not walk in the Spirit, and be subject to some fleshly actions. ….
Is this some more of the "already but not yet" stuff of being a pilgrim and sojourner? |
I think so. This, other than just wanting to be with Jesus, is what more than anything else makes me yearn for the coming of Christ – to be like him. Then our salvation shall be complete. Then we will not only have the power to win over temptation (as Sudsy points out), but we will be free from temptation itself.
Romans 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? (25) Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!”
There is a good deal of discussion regarding Romans chapter 7 – some commentators arguing that this cannot be Paul speaking from his own Christian experience. But I don’t see how it can be honestly taken otherwise. He speaks in the first person. It would appear to be out of place in the book if it is pre-Christian experience, and the conclusion to his statement is a Christian response, not an unbeliever’s response. In fact, the whole exclamation, and the feelings underlying it, are Christian in nature. The unbeliever does not anguish over his sin, nor does he exclaim the answer to it – that the Christ of God will deliver him. |
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| Neto Member Joined Feb 2, 2005 288 posts Location: Holmes County, Ohio |
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Posted Feb 15, 2010; 2:27 pm |
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Thanks, James, for the kind words.
We do in fact have some terrible things happening in our communities lately - husbands leaving their wives, wives leaving their husbands, even murder and rape.
We all need to learn from one another, to pray for one another, that we will all persevere to the end, and be found faithful. |
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| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
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Posted Feb 15, 2010; 10:27 pm |
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Good Thread – thanks for posting it Sudsy. Here are a few thoughts.
As humans (even Spirit-filled humans) we will always sin – sinless perfection is for the eschaton. As such we can always expect to sin. That being said we should never plan to sin. If we expect to live sinless lives we live in delusion; if we plan to sin …. well, I’m guessing we know the dark roads this leads to.
I’d be interested to hear what Forum members think about the Jungian concept of ‘the shadow’ side of our personalities. I think it comes into play here. Perhaps we need to acknowledge our shadow – failure to do so can get us into trouble.
Here is an article about the shadow Link for anyone unfamiliar with the term. |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2902 posts |
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Posted Feb 16, 2010; 10:40 am |
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| Quote: | | One gains perspective by holding onto one’s true self. This is identified in many world religions as the Christ or Divine Self. Through prayer and meditation one becomes accustomed to the location of this true self which in turns keeps one in a more balanced frame of mind. |
When I read this in the accompanying 8 easy steps, what is termed 'one's true self' is quite similar to what I would call the Holy Spirit dwelling within. The 'shadow', to me, is similar to 'the flesh', those destructive desires that hinder me from becoming more like Christ. Actually Jung calls this shadow 'our sparring partner'.
However, his approach is to embrace this shadow and learn from it rather than crucifying it or making it ineffective by walking in the Spirit. I don't have a problem with recognizing how my flesh manifests itself and believe the Holy Spirit will reveal this to me if I am attentive to Him. I'm not sure anyone can, through their own self analysis and awareness, rightly see all of the affects of the fall on their minds. I think this requires first to be reborn of the Spirit and then the illumination of the scriptures through the Spirit to get this kind of guidance.
Seems this idea of the 'divine self' being a source anyone of any religion can access, is a very popular concept today. It is as if we don't need a Saviour, we have one within us already and we just need to become aware of that. Although it may appeal to human reason, it is not what scriptures teach. I think these kinds of concepts are all leading toward an acceptable, one world religion and likely many nominal Christians will join in. |
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| Len Member Joined Nov 7, 2007 255 posts Location: Kelowna, BC |
| dallas willard |
Posted Feb 16, 2010; 4:39 pm |
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No time to rehearse it all here, but I think two of the greatest blocks in all this is..
a. lack of clarity about God's purpose for us in Christ (the telos or end goal - the new humanity and its nature)
b. lack of clarity about the relationship of spirit and soul (or body)
To my mind Willard is the genius here and all his books are helpful.. particularly "renovation of the heart" and "the spirit of the disciplines."
Attaching a short paper I created for a handout .. I'm preaching this wkend out of Eph. 4... This is designed to print on two sides of one sheet..
http://www.nextreformation.com/wp-admin/resources/Growing_in_Grace.pdf |
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