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| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
 Olympic opening ceremonies and the Tower of Babel: musings |
Posted Feb 13, 2010; 11:21 pm |
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Yesterday my beloved and I watched the Olympic opening ceremonies on TV. I experienced a range of emotions: sadness at the death of a young athlete; disappointment because Terry Fox’s mom wasn’t more prominent than Gretzky; I enjoyed the pageantry; I was proud of Canada and glad that the ceremonies didn’t suck. The Orcas swimming in the ocean, first nation dancers were great.
However, I have been listening to the Dr. Waltke’s lecture series of the book of Genesis (via Regent Audio) and yesterday morning had listened to the section about the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:1-9). I see some similarities: yesterday the peoples of the world came together and celebrated unity. In the Babel story something similar occurred.
But yesterday we celebrated the world’s unity and diversity; hence Canada as the host country was prominent. Other than an opening speech that mentioned ‘God bless Canada’ the God of the Bible was absent (and just who the God being referenced is open to interpretation). Instead we had a cool Spirit Bear, paganism and KD Lang singing an incredible rendition of Leonard Cohen’s ‘Halleluiah.’ Since we (Canada) are a multi-faith and no faith country I didn’t expect or particularly want biblical monotheism represented.
However, I had just listened to the Walkte lecture about the Tower of Babel and kept thinking about it while watching the ceremonies. It seems to me that yesterday we had humanity, created by the One True God and carrying his image, gathered together celebrating unity, achievement and emphasizing hope for the future without acknowledging the One to whom humanity owes allegiance. Kind of like a nation under a monarchy, throwing a huge party without acknowledging the monarch. At its heart is this not rebellion?
Any thoughts/comments? |
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| rudyhiebert Member Joined Oct 2, 2003 481 posts Location: Abbotsford BC |
| Re: Olympic opening ceremonies and the Tower of Babel: musin |
Posted Feb 14, 2010; 11:05 am |
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| westcoast frame of mind wrote: | "....his image, gathered together celebrating unity, achievement and emphasizing hope for the future without acknowledging the One to whom humanity owes allegiance. Kind of like a nation under a monarchy, throwing a huge party without acknowledging the monarch. At its heart is this not rebellion?
Any thoughts/comments? |
Reflecting on my reaction to the opening ceremony, I can see how "Westcoast Frame of Mind" comes to these ideas, however, let's not forget a couple of things. VANOC portrayed itself as the ruling authority, not the host city of Vancouver but I may be wrong. My opinion is that it, (VANOC) was challenged to please no particular segment of the population, thus the Spirit Bear was used. If anything was obvious was the themes that point to the First Nations. I would aspire to that if there were First Nations athletes but didn't see any if there were. My reaction to that was not positive. On the other hand I was proud of the performance in general. I wonder if there is a message in the forth pillar that malfunctioned and was not able to be raised?
The theme of sport and athletics was definitely predominant, which we as MB's are not famous for.
On "rebellion", agree, therefore it's no wonder the "demon-strators" are more like terrorists than showing off how they think. Some of us just are more academic, law abiding and sophisticated in our rebellion. |
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| lornewel Member Joined May 11, 2004 553 posts Location: Abbotsford |
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Posted Feb 14, 2010; 12:15 pm |
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| Actually, I think Canadian Mennonites are at the highest levels in certain sports - perhaps roughly in proportion to our percentage of the total population. But then I am going by ethnic surnames for my conclusion - like 5 gold medal Olympian Cindy Klassen in speed skating and NHL players Darcy Regier, Robyn Regehr, Richie Regehr and Jonathan Toews. |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2833 posts |
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Posted Feb 14, 2010; 3:39 pm |
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| Quote: | | However, I had just listened to the Walkte lecture about the Tower of Babel and kept thinking about it while watching the ceremonies. It seems to me that yesterday we had humanity, created by the One True God and carrying his image, gathered together celebrating unity, achievement and emphasizing hope for the future without acknowledging the One to whom humanity owes allegiance. Kind of like a nation under a monarchy, throwing a huge party without acknowledging the monarch. At its heart is this not rebellion? |
To me, it is about humanism. We can be all that we should be without God. However, I did enjoy the special effects.
I also wondered how many people listening recognize the word 'Hallelujah' as 'Praise the Lord' as Christians do. I did think KD Lang did a great job in putting so much expression into this song. But this song reminds me of another song, 'Amazing Grace' that so many unbelievers will sing and perhaps even weep and yet have not experienced the amazing saving grace that is so well explained in the lyrics. |
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| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
| on 1st Nations + Olympics and "Hallelujah" |
Posted Feb 14, 2010; 5:17 pm |
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Rudy wrote:
| Quote: | | If anything was obvious was the themes that point to the First Nations. I would aspire to that if there were First Nations athletes but didn't see any if there were. My reaction to that was not positive. |
Reading this media release Link will give you context into the presence of the 1st Nations. My cynical side speculates that pragmatism was in the driver’s seat on the white establishment side of the decision. The establishment made friends with potential adversaries. Had this not happened, I’m wondering if the First Nations up in near Squamish Whistler would have put up barriers along the highway.
Given the horrific history between European settlement and the 1st Nations in my view, a Christian response to the 1st Nations emphasis at the Olympics ceremony is to be thankful.
Contact and Conflict by Robin Fisher (1992) outlines the history of contact/conflict between Europeans and 1st Nations in the Northwest. A point he makes is that so long as Europeans did not settle but traded (i.e. Hudson’s Bay – furs) with the 1st Nations things went well. But when European settlers took traditional 1st Nations’ lands there was conflict. A poignant story from the book has stayed with me. In the Yarrow/Cultus lake area a 1st Nations family were farming and had begun a potato patch. A European settler moved onto the land and pushed the 1st Nations family off. This was likely before any Mennonite farmers had moved into the Yarrow area. But the story has stayed in my memory. Mennonites likely bought land from people who had ‘stolen’ it from the 1st nations. It was great to be welcomed into their territory (thats how the 1st Nations view it).
Sudsy I find Cohen’s Halleluiah song very difficult to understand. Here are the lyrics Link. I think it’s a fine piece of music and poetry. I once heard Bono (U2) say that in Halleluiah Cohen skirts the edge of madness. I also wonder what people made of the song. Follow this link if you want to hear it from the man himself: Link |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2833 posts |
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Posted Feb 15, 2010; 12:10 pm |
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Yes, I find those lyrics confusing. He is talking about David and the next couple lines it sounds like he is talking more about Samson. What is 'she tied you to a kitchen chair' ? Perhaps, Cohen can't remember Bible stories very well. I guess we are supposed to read into all this and it is just perhaps some expressions of sin binding and stealing away our Hallelujahs. And on and on it goes with more who knows what. I guess I'm more a meat and potatoes kind of guy when it comes to lyrics and art. IMO, there's a lot of Babel in both and I wouldn't pay a dime for much of it.
But even in 'Gospel music', some can be moved to the music (beat, rhythm, melody, harmony) and not really need to understand the lyrics. I sing in a senior men's choir and sometimes I think so much concentration is on the harmony that I think we could exchange the words for secular words and it wouldn't make much difference to many.
Anyway, regarding taking pride in things like the opening ceremonies is an interesting topic. My wife and I have kicked this around a bit this morning. I ponder why do I want to be identified with a performance that I did nothing in it's creation and take a sense of pride that this represents me in some way ? If it was a flop, should I be embarrassed as a Canadian ? As a Kingdom of God ambassador, how much pride should I feel in being associated with Canada ? And then, how much anxiety and/or how thrilled should I be regarding how many medals Canada wins ?
I guess, I am pondering how attached or unattached should I be to any of these temporal things in my thinking and what are the pros and cons of doing so. I find my stomach in knots sometimes over a hockey game and then I catch myself and ask myself why I have put so much value into the outcome. Does it directly impact my life and usually the answer is not at all yet I gave myself some very anxious moments. When it comes down to it, as Ecclesiastes says, much of this life is quite meaningless apart from fearing God and keeping His commandments. But it is not easy to keep things in this perspective. |
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| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
| Critical realism and patriotism |
Posted Feb 15, 2010; 10:49 pm |
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I’m kind of immune to sports – so the whole Olympics thing doesn’t move me much. Although it was fun watching the Canadian guy stand on the podium to get that gold medal (specially since he was standing next to an American  ). I agree with Sudsy about being a part of the Kingdom – this should / must give us a world-wide broad perspective.
I’ve given some thought to appropriate patriotism (critical realism seems like an appropriate term here even if it comes from another discipline). Some time ago I was in a online debate with American Christians (Southern Baptists) about the Christians active participation in war. I was trying to represent the Anabaptist perspective. One line from my debating partner stuck with me. He said ‘at least we are fighting over in Iraq rather than here.’ From my perspective, at best he uttering a sub-Christian sentiment, at worse it was sinful. It seemed he had identified too closely with the country he happened to be living in. But then this was a person claiming the name of Jesus and arguing that it was proper to torture prisoners in order to get info (think the ticking bomb scenario and a terrorist is caught with info about its location).
I definitely think there is a place for feeling pride in our country. But we need to understand the psychology of us/them and how politicians and systems play us. I’m conflicted about just what the correct balance should be. I’d be interested to read how Neto would weigh in on this one. |
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| Neto Member Joined Feb 2, 2005 254 posts Location: Holmes County, Ohio |
| Re: Critical realism and patriotism |
Posted Feb 17, 2010; 8:40 pm |
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| westcoast frame of mind wrote: | I’ve given some thought to appropriate patriotism (critical realism seems like an appropriate term here even if it comes from another discipline). Some time ago I was in a online debate with American Christians (Southern Baptists) about the Christians active participation in war. I was trying to represent the Anabaptist perspective. One line from my debating partner stuck with me. He said ‘at least we are fighting over in Iraq rather than here.’ From my perspective, at best he uttering a sub-Christian sentiment, at worse it was sinful. It seemed he had identified too closely with the country he happened to be living in. But then this was a person claiming the name of Jesus and arguing that it was proper to torture prisoners in order to get info (think the ticking bomb scenario and a terrorist is caught with info about its location).
I definitely think there is a place for feeling pride in our country. But we need to understand the psychology of us/them and how politicians and systems play us. I’m conflicted about just what the correct balance should be. I’d be interested to read how Neto would weigh in on this one. |
I just now read through this thread for the first time, and wouldn’t have responded, but since you ask, Westcoast, here are my confessions and thoughts on patriotism.
I grew up very patriotic. I was just a bit too young for Nam, but wanted to go over and take care of the real problem (as I saw it), Moscow. That is very simplistic, but that is what I said to my friends back then. (I also tried to get the youth leaders to let us sing the “America, America, Let us tell you how we feel…” song in MBY – that didn’t go over.) As a non-resistant Mennonite (now) I confess that I do still have feelings of patriotism. Especially when I heard of US soldiers who were caught and tortured, then beheaded, their bodies burned. Something burned in me as well. I think it is a natural response to feel patriotism. (I especially identify this with the state where I grew up – sometimes I think that these feelings are stronger for people from certain areas of the US than those from other states, but I really don’t know.) But admitting that it is a natural response doesn’t justify it, or even excuse it. It is also a natural response to lust after an inadequately clothed woman, but it is sin. I regard feelings of patriotism in the same way, as a sinful response of the natural man.
(Another subject, but also a confession: I find that my non-resistance is most challenged on the freeway.  And when someone pushes the snow from their drive on to mine, like what has happened 3 times in this last series of snow storms over the last week and a half. Pray for me, please.) |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2833 posts |
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Posted Feb 18, 2010; 11:06 am |
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| Quote: | | I regard feelings of patriotism in the same way, as a sinful response of the natural man. |
Neto, do you see these feelings as something that involves pride and that is why it is sinful ? Or perhaps, is it a form of idolatry ? If pride, is it also sinful to take pride in our children or denomination or achievements ? Scripture says that our 'boasting', which, I think, is associated with pride (i.e. patriotic feelings ?) should only be in the Lord and not in ourselves or something else (i.e. our country ?). 2 Cor 10:17, Jer. 9:24.
I found this article interesting on this subject - http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/worryfea/pride5.htm
Neto, I appreciate your identification (confession) of an area in your life that you struggle with and I believe this is what James 5:16 is all about. I will pray for you. My top area of struggle, at the moment, is establishing certain spiritual disciplines that I'm convinced are key to growth. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Pray for me also. |
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| Neto Member Joined Feb 2, 2005 254 posts Location: Holmes County, Ohio |
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Posted Feb 18, 2010; 12:31 pm |
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| Sudsy wrote: | | Quote: | | I regard feelings of patriotism in the same way, as a sinful response of the natural man. |
Neto, do you see these feelings as something that involves pride and that is why it is sinful ? Or perhaps, is it a form of idolatry ? If pride, is it also sinful to take pride in our children or denomination or achievements ? Scripture says that our 'boasting', which, I think, is associated with pride (i.e. patriotic feelings ?) should only be in the Lord and not in ourselves or something else (i.e. our country ?). 2 Cor 10:17, Jer. 9:24.
I found this article interesting on this subject - http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/worryfea/pride5.htm
Neto, I appreciate your identification (confession) of an area in your life that you struggle with and I believe this is what James 5:16 is all about. I will pray for you. My top area of struggle, at the moment, is establishing certain spiritual disciplines that I'm convinced are key to growth. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Pray for me also. |
I see it as idolatry, or spiritual adultery. It is an allegiance to a kingdom that is not the Kingdom of the Christ of God. What do they call that? Treason.
Regarding pride, I believe it has its place. I think that the important difference between healthy pride and sinful pride is what the point of comparison is. Note Galatians 6:1-5, especially vs 4: “Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else,” (NIV). If we look at our own lives and can see that in comparison to where we were in the past we have become more obedient, more holy, then we can take pride in that. Of course with this disclaimer, that we do not take credit for it, but give God the glory. Comparing myself to another person, and being proud as a result – that is sin. |
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| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
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Posted Feb 19, 2010; 9:26 am |
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on a whim i did a web search on christian patriotism and got lots of results :)
I did come across a fellow who seems to have done some thinking about the topic Link it looks like a fairly comprehensive overview. and the person who produced the study is a French physicist working in Switzerland. Sometimes the info on the internet is quite amazing. |
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| Todd Moderator Joined Sep 9, 2004 1088 posts Location: Winnipeg |
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Posted Feb 19, 2010; 1:05 pm |
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On the tower of Babel issue. The Day of Pentecost is a sign of sorts that the 'curse' (if one can call it that) of tongues, was undone. The Christian Gospel is a universal one, not a tribal one. Not sure how this applies necessarily to the Olympic Ceremonies. I certainly think unity is preferable to war and conflict. In the context of the Olympics, Sport is the unifying force. How does this compare to the Tower of Babel? I don't see a clear resemblance.
On aboriginals, I liked the focus. Is it paganistic? Here I would judge more based on modern intent than the symbols and dances. Aboriginal traditions may have been formed out of a paganistic understanding of the universe, but I think it has largely evolved into a cultural tradition with allegorical meaning. (I'm not an expert, however). Part of the intent is to portray a history of Vancouver, and I think it would be negligent to ignore the first settlers. And FWIW, many aboriginals are not too pleased with some of the environmental degradation, such as the twinning of the highway between Vancouver and Whistler. Acknowledging them during the ceremonies might help build bridges when others have been torn down. I also would think that many aboriginal Christians still respect aboriginal traditions and culture, though they might not agree with how the traditions and culture originated. It's maybe comparable to Christians celebrating Christmas on a former pagan holiday with some pagan imagery that got re-interpreted. |
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| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
| On Babel and 1st Nations |
Posted Feb 19, 2010; 5:47 pm |
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Todd; thanks for your comments. Here are a few quick responses/explanations:
| Quote: | | In the context of the Olympics, Sport is the unifying force. How does this compare to the Tower of Babel? I don't see a clear resemblance. |
My original post focused on and was a response to the opening ceremonies – although, in a way it could be applied to the entire two week event. I’d guess that anyone listening to Waltke’s Genesis lecture’s would make the connection (and I wasn’t trying to draw a 1-1 parallel between Babel/Olympics). Just that it is an example of people gathering together exerting their autonomy without acknowledging the sovereign living God of the Universe (who is ultimately revealed in the person of Jesus). That theme runs through Genesis.
| Quote: | | Aboriginal traditions may have been formed out of a paganistic understanding of the universe, but I think it has largely evolved into a cultural tradition with allegorical meaning. (I'm not an expert, however). |
I’m not an expert either – my experience comes from 1st hand contact (very unscientific) and reading. There is a definite resurgence among the 1st nations in people returning to their original culture and spirituality. For many it can be kind of returning to culture rather like an errant Mennonite might return to his or her ethnic roots. But there are a significant number of 1st nations peope who are returning to their spirituality.
In this regard, an image from the Olympic ceremonies stays with me: the spirit bear that rose out of the floor. One camera scene shot from floor level was taken behind the people as they turned toward the spirit bear that soared above them. The narrator said that spirit animals of this type were understood to be a link between the human and animal world. That was only partially correct. As I understand it, a young male went on a spirit quest (fasting out alone in the bush) if he was lucky and spiritual enough he had a vision or experience of some sort which may include an animal. This animal would become a spirit guide to help him throughout his adult life.
I would critique the opening ceremony as having a moment where a spirit bear is portrayed as a spiritual guide. And I bet a coffee or beer that the four tribal chiefs sitting behind our Prime Minister understood it that way also.
I hope this makes sense – push backs are always welcome |
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| gay lynn voth Member Joined Jan 25, 2005 693 posts |
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Posted Mar 2, 2010; 11:02 am |
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Hi Westcoast ... I read your opening entry near the time you posted it and thought about it occassionally as I watched the athletes perform and as I watched the closing ceremonies. I wondered how much of the Olympian history we are all aware of? The history is informative in light of some of your questions, I think.
I'm not sure that the earliest Christians dismissed the Olympics as irrelevant or contradictory to the building up of the faith. From some passages in the NT, it seems that they saw this kind of sporting event (in honor of the gods) as building up the body with patience, just as the farmer exercises patience as s/he "builds' the field. It seems that neither of these exercises of patience and endurance are seen to be wrong, but rather as non-substantial to 'build up' in spiritual matters.
While athletic discipline and patriotism might build up some areas of a person's life, it cannot be assumed that there is a direct spiritual connection. I think in this regard, the Halleluia song was appropriate. Cohen is talking about broken Halleluias - that come from both good and misguided intentions - songs coming from the lives of broken people. This "hymn' to the Olympian gods acknowledged the spiritual limitations of this event - while allowing for some moments of personal and national success as well as tragedy.
Just some thoughts that can also be "pushed back"  |
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| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
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Posted Mar 2, 2010; 4:29 pm |
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Gay Lynn
I’m not aware of Olympian history (other than having a vague notion of a 26 mile marathon between two cities). I hope my opening post doesn’t read as dismissive of the Olympics or that I think it is contradictory to the building up of the Christian faith. That wasn’t my intent. My intent was to do some theological reflections of the opening ceremonies in terms of the peoples of the earth gathering without acknowledging the one true Creator God of the universe. Waltke’s Genesis lectures were the stimulus (For any Forum readers who may not know; Waltke is a very conservative reformed Biblical theologian – and since I took in his lectures several decades ago I have admired him greatly even though I differ with him on some issues).
Regarding the early Christians and the Games; I often thought of Paul’s use of sports metaphor and how that shows familiarity and engagement with his culture. It seems to me that modern Christians who wish to isolate themselves from culture may be disregarding his example.
The image of the Spirit Bear soaring overhead as the humans turn towards it, to me anyway, is an image of humans becoming submissive to or turning towards another spiritual power (demonic powers?). [Believe it or not, over my lunch break I read most of the MB Confession of Faith a line says something like ‘although there may be elements of truth in other religions, Scriptures warn against false teachings.’] I wasn’t trying to rain on anyone’s parade, just noticing.
And I think sports and physical fitness can certainly be part of spiritual maturation. For me, it helps me focus which i think is a good ‘spiritual’ discipline and has the added benefit of holding off some of the aging process.
Thanks for your comments about Cohen’s number. |
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