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| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
 I came across a new LABEL |
Posted Feb 21, 2010; 2:25 pm |
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I came across a new label on Denny Burk’s blog the other day Link
Denny is a prof at Boyce College, a Southern Baptist undergraduate school and is an editor at CBMW (Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood). He was commenting on the new President at Wheaton College and says “This is wonderful news for Wheaton and for the kingdom. Dr. Ryken is a Gospel Coalition evangelical, and I can’t imagine a better pick.”
So now we have another way to identify other believers – if they are truly orthodox and safe, they are a Gospel Coalition evangelical. |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2927 posts |
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Posted Feb 21, 2010; 3:41 pm |
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| I followed the Link and his description of what is an evangelical in his view. In that view, I are an 'evangelical' and aim to always be. I will remain an MB attender as long as they remain an evangelical in that definition of the term, at least, at a local church level. I believe it is most essential to not stray from the original Gospel as he describes it and to not separate from culture in such a way to not have a 'redeeming, transforming presence'. So, on the other thread with the poll, under this definition, I am 100% Evangelical and I am also Mennonite to some extent depending on how this label is defined. |
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| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
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Posted Feb 21, 2010; 4:11 pm |
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| Sudsy, I’m not quite sure where a full description of a ‘Gospel Coalition Evangelical’ is found on Denny’s blog or the links but here is the Gospel Coalition’s Confession of Faith Link. If you can sign on to that confession you get Denny’s endorsement as being a Gospel Coalition Evangelical. |
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| Neto Member Joined Feb 2, 2005 290 posts Location: Holmes County, Ohio |
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Posted Feb 21, 2010; 7:04 pm |
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Please don’t call me one of these.
I will say, however, that it is extremely difficult to succinctly state the basic doctrines in this way. Reading through this statement of doctrine (like any other) you have to infer how they might respond to a specific questions, such as those dealt with in another thread here regarding the atonement. I do recognize the need to make statements of doctrine, but it is so easy to go beyond what is actually stated in Scripture, and it is my opinion that even this brief systematic theology has fallen into this fault. Granted, it is easier to throw stones than to gather them, so I hope that I have not been overly critical in this response to this statement of faith. (The quotes are taken form the link WCFoM provided.)
| Quote: | | 2. Revelation …the Scriptures, the sixty-six books of the Old and New Testaments, which are both record and means of his saving work in the world. These writings alone constitute the verbally inspired Word of God, which is utterly authoritative and without error in the original writings, complete in its revelation of his will for salvation, sufficient for all that God requires us to believe and do, and final in its authority over every domain of knowledge to which it speaks. |
There seems to be an implication here that the Scriptures are forever closed – I don’t think the Scriptures themselves make any such claim, so how can anyone make such a statement?
| Quote: | | 3. Creation of Humanity …., and the wife submitting to her husband in a way that models the love of the church for her Lord. |
While I do agree with this, it is not the whole story about submission between husband & wife. I could probably accurately be called a “complementarian”, and I do believe in a God-given line of authority, but a husband and wife are more one than they are leader and submitter.
| Quote: | | 4. The Fall We believe that Adam, made in the image of God, distorted that image and forfeited his original blessedness—for himself and all his progeny—by falling into sin through Satan’s temptation. |
Actually, Adam was tempted by Eve, Not?
| Quote: | | 5. The Plan of God We believe that from all eternity God determined in grace to save a great multitude of guilty sinners from every tribe and language and people and nation, and to this end foreknew them and chose them. |
I was waiting for something about the enabling grace of God, which makes it possible for the sinner to respond to his saving grace…..
| Quote: | | 6. The Gospel …. This good news is … intensely personal (where it is received, believed, and held firmly, individual persons are saved). |
Agreed, but it is also intensely communal. Isn’t there something about a body?
| Quote: | | 7. The Redemption of Christ … the eternal Son became human: the Word became flesh, fully God and fully human being, one Person in two natures. |
| Quote: | | We believe that salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name given under heaven by which we must be saved. |
I fully agree. There seems to be a growing hesitation to say what the Scriptures say of him, that he is the only way to God.
| Quote: | | 8. The Justification of Sinners …. Inasmuch as Christ[‘s] … obedience and punishment were accepted in place of our own, freely and not for anything in us, this justification is solely of free grace, in order that both the exact justice and the rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners. We believe that a zeal for personal and public obedience flows from this free justification. |
At least they got in the part about obedience, too; maybe a bit weak, but it is there. (I would omit the words “a zeal for”. )
| Quote: | | 9. The Power of the Holy Spirit We believe that this salvation, attested in all Scripture and secured by Jesus Christ, is applied to his people by the Holy Spirit. Sent by the Father and the Son, the Holy Spirit glorifies the Lord Jesus Christ, and, as the “other” Paraclete, is present with and in believers. He convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment, and by his powerful and mysterious work regenerates spiritually dead sinners, awakening them to repentance and faith, baptizing them into union with the Lord Jesus, such that they are justified before God by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. |
Do you get the idea that this is really a deal about “alone”? I sometimes get the feeling that both “grace” and “faith” are emphasized too much in their own right; we can forget that the “grace” is God’s grace, ant that the “faith” is faith in Jesus Christ.
| Quote: | | 10. The Kingdom of God … the inward transformation that awakens a desire to glorify, trust, and obey God, …. |
I’m curious why they chose the word “awakens”, in stead of something like “creates”.
| Quote: | | Good works constitute indispensable evidence of saving grace. |
Here we have what was somewhat weak in point 8.
| Quote: | | Living as salt in a world that is decaying and light in a world that is dark, believers should neither withdraw into seclusion from the world, nor become indistinguishable from it |
I wonder how they flesh this out, this “not becoming indistinguishable from the world”?
| Quote: | | It therefore inevitably establishes a new community of human life together under God. |
Here they get in what seemed lacking in point 6.
| Quote: | | 11. God’s New People We believe that God’s new covenant people have already come to the heavenly Jerusalem; they are already seated with Christ in the heavenlies. |
I admit I am puzzled by this statement – not sure what they are saying, in regard to how they might view the fulfillment of the prophecies in the book of the Revelation, etc.
| Quote: | | This universal church is manifest in local churches of which Christ is the only Head; thus each “local church” is, in fact, the church, the household of God, the assembly of the living God, and the pillar and foundation of the truth. The church is the body of Christ, the apple of his eye, graven on his hands, and he has pledged himself to her forever. The church is distinguished by her gospel message, her sacred ordinances, her discipline, her great mission, and, above all, by her love for God, and by her members’ love for one another and for the world. Crucially, this gospel we cherish has both personal and corporate dimensions, neither of which may properly be overlooked. Christ Jesus is our peace: he has not only brought about peace with God, but also peace between alienated peoples. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity, thus making peace, and in one body to reconcile both Jew and Gentile to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. The church serves as a sign of God’s future new world when its members live for the service of one another and their neighbors, rather than for self-focus. The church is the corporate dwelling place of God’s Spirit, and the continuing witness to God in the world. |
They don’t say it, but I get the impression that, if asked, they would say that “the church” has replaced Israel as the people of God. But the Gentiles are grafted in, not the other way around. |
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| McDLT Moderator Joined May 14, 2004 1451 posts Location: Toronto |
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Posted Feb 21, 2010; 10:12 pm |
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I'm not entirely sure about this as I have only scanned their Confessional Statement. I would however not wish to be one as I don't really like the word "Coalition", as I don't particularly like how it has been used in other contexts.
Just my 2 cents. |
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| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
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Posted Feb 21, 2010; 10:35 pm |
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McDLT this will help you understand something about the Gospel Coalition.
Willingdon Church (a large MB church in Burnaby, BC) is hosting a Gospel Coalition Conference this April. Follow this Link to Willingdon’s website and this Link gets you to Gospel Coalition’s website. |
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| McDLT Moderator Joined May 14, 2004 1451 posts Location: Toronto |
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Posted Feb 21, 2010; 10:47 pm |
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Thanks - I've started reading more on the GC website. I'll try and comment more later.
I did notice that the pastor at Willingdon is a member of the GC Council along with John Piper, Tim Keller, Mark Driscoll, DA Carson, and many more. |
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| James Toews Member Joined Mar 31, 2006 409 posts |
| Caution Flag |
Posted Feb 22, 2010; 11:12 am |
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On another thread a poster is being challenged because he is using, inference and guilt by association to critique Mark Baker [a MB seminary prof]. As I read the above posts it appears to me that the same thing is threatening to take place here. John Neufeld, the pastor of Willingdon MB Church is a passionate theologian heavily influenced by Reformed theology- but if we are truely Biblical then that is not a valid critique.
Researching the GC is a good thing to do, if for no other reason than that they represent significant voice among us, but in doing so I think we must be careful not to demonize our fellow workers in the Kingdom. In the case of John, he is a personal friend with whom I have carried on many vigourous but brotherly conversations. That's probably why my radar is a little sensitive in this case. |
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| westcoast frame of mind Moderator |
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Posted Feb 22, 2010; 11:41 am |
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agreed,
my point was the way Denny introduced the new Wheaton president as a 'Gospel Coalition evangelical'
it seems Christians keep coming up with new ways to label one another. i'm guilty as well.
that being said, a month or so ago, for some reason the MB BC church planting website was running the Gospel Coalition confession of faith on its website......
the GospelCoalition confession on the MB BC was discussed on our Forum and then vanished from the churchplanting website.
i'm noticing the influence of movements within evangelicalism and our denominatation. |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2927 posts |
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Posted Feb 22, 2010; 11:44 am |
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WCFOM posted - | Quote: | | Sudsy, I’m not quite sure where a full description of a ‘Gospel Coalition Evangelical’ is found on Denny’s blog or the links but here is the Gospel Coalition’s Confession of Faith Link. If you can sign on to that confession you get Denny’s endorsement as being a Gospel Coalition Evangelical. |
Where I found his description of an 'Evangelical' was through the link 'Justin Taylor has some biographical info on Ryken here' which links to http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2010/02/20/philip-ryken-new-president-of-wheaton-college/ and the video.
I read the Gospel Coalition Evangelical description and I would not 'sign on' to this as a statement of my personal beliefs. I do think there is much though in it that I agree with. However, I prefer keeping statements of belief more general like Ryken's description of an evangelical or statements like the Apostles Creed. I doubt if I will ever 'sign on' to a statement of faith by any denomination or local church but I will respect their teachings while involved in fellowship.
I am curious about this Gospel Coalition and do enjoy the ministry of various one's in the council. Two that I listen to quite often are Alistair Begg and James MacDonald. I am encouraged throughout the week by their ministries. I need to read the Coalition site through and what I have read so far, has aroused my curiosity and I agree with some of their concerns and mission. A bit skeptical, at this point, as to how many Anabaptists would care to join. |
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| James Toews Member Joined Mar 31, 2006 409 posts |
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Posted Feb 22, 2010; 12:04 pm |
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Hi WCFOM
I think that it is fair to attribute both the appearance and disappearance of GC material on CPBC website to part of a much needed conversation about our identity. It was on the Forum that the GC material was noted and the timing suggests that it was in response to Forum conversations that it was pulled.
GC conferences hosted by a key MB pastor is noteworthy. Engaging in constructive conversations about what this means is the next step. IMO this is where our community hermeneutic needs to kick into gear. I think that the Forum can play a Kingdom role in this but we are still trying to figure out how to work constructive electronic conversations. |
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| Neto Member Joined Feb 2, 2005 290 posts Location: Holmes County, Ohio |
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Posted Feb 22, 2010; 1:17 pm |
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James,
If your caution regarding the danger of demonizing someone was in response to my post, then I sincerely apologize, and offer to withdraw my comments. I did not intend it in that way.
Sudsy,
I also very much enjoy the broadcasts by Allister Begg, and I don't think I've ever heard him say something with which I do not agree. If so, then it was a matter of emphasis, such as that he may stress predestination more than I would, but I do not recall any particular comment of his with which I would have a problem. |
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| Radames Member Joined Feb 17, 2006 384 posts Location: Surrey |
| Do GC members need to be born again? |
Posted Feb 22, 2010; 1:59 pm |
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| McDLT wrote: | Thanks - I've started reading more on the GC website. I'll try and comment more later.
I did notice that the pastor at Willingdon is a member of the GC Council along with John Piper, Tim Keller, Mark Driscoll, DA Carson, and many more. |
I took a closer look at the GC members, and the confession, and find that combining the two results in a troubling inference.
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Baptism and the Lord’s Supper We believe that baptism and the Lord’s Supper are ordained by the Lord Jesus himself. The former is connected with entrance into the new covenant community, the latter with ongoing covenant renewal. Together they are simultaneously God’s pledge to us, divinely ordained means of grace, our public vows of submission to the once crucified and now resurrected Christ, and anticipations of his return and of the consummation of all things.
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The GC members include 9 Presbyterians. As far as I know, Presbyterians still hold to infant baptism. If you read the above confessional quote in light of this, it makes me think that the Gospel Coalition accepts infant baptism as sufficient for "entrance into the new covenant community". This is the traditional reformed position, but it is not the anabaptist position. The confession does not seem to include a specific requirement for rebirth (being "born again").
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We believe that those who have been saved by the grace of God through union with Christ by faith and through regeneration by the Holy Spirit enter the kingdom of God and delight in the blessings of the new covenant
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Paedobaptists may claim this regeneration happens at baptism, and that the parent's faith is sufficient to save the child. Granted, the confession can also be read with an anabaptist perspective, but the membership of the GC seems to indicate it was deliberately written to be inclusive of paedobaptists.
Am I missing something here? |
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| James Toews Member Joined Mar 31, 2006 409 posts |
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Posted Feb 22, 2010; 2:12 pm |
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It was not in response to your comments, Neto. The point by point commentary you made was instructive and allows a GC advocate to reply back in kind.
I think that having respectful conversations between Anabaptist and Reformed theologians is quite a challenge because of our different presuppositions about the nature of theological discourse. [And also because of our long adversarial history.] If however we can grant that both Reformers and Anabaptists are sincerely trying to understand and apply the Gospel we can overcome these hurdles, IMO.
I hope no one thinks I am asking that we not critique the various theological streams that rise up among us. |
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| James Toews Member Joined Mar 31, 2006 409 posts |
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Posted Feb 22, 2010; 2:20 pm |
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| Great question, Radames! You are the right one to raise it, IMHO :) The GC also seems to draw very heavily on the Anglican tradition for its theological scholarship. ie JI Packer et al. This should not just be a problem for Anabaptists, but all theological Baptists. |
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