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| McDLT Moderator Joined May 14, 2004 1451 posts Location: Toronto |
 SWFOI: Chapters 12 to 14 |
Posted Nov 8, 2005; 11:19 am |
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Chapter 12 - A New Kind of People in the World
Chapter 13 - A Resistance Movement Against Evil
Chapter 14 - Conversation: God and Humanity
Please do NOT feel like you have to answer these questions. You can answer one, all, or none of them. They are just here to help get you thinking.
What did you think about these chapters? Did they bring up any questions? Did you disagree with anything? agree with anything?
Was there anything that stood out for you? made you wonder? made you laugh? made you angry?
Did you find anything which you can apply to yourself and/or your life experiences? Do you have any personal examples?
What do you think about Neo's 'explaination' of Abram's calling?
What do you think of Maricel's reaction to Neo? How would you have reacted if you were Maricel? Neo?
Please DO share your thoughts and opinions.  |
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| Marshall Member Joined Feb 7, 2002 1191 posts Location: Langley, BC |
| Parallelism, blessing and certainty |
Posted Nov 12, 2005; 1:18 am |
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It was refreshing to have Neo open a Bible and read on page 63. There's been lots of conversations about the Bible, but Neo rarely directly quotes Scripture (I think this is something Dan points out to him later -- his ideas would be received better by many Christians if he spent more time revealing how they line up with Scripture). To be fair, on page 14 Neo does read from Scripture, but the details aren't described.
I liked the bit about parallelism on pages 63-64. It's one of those things that's quite basic but can really help with understanding a poetic passage in Scripture. For instance, I once heard someone try to make a big deal about the difference between transgressions and iniquities based on Isaiah 53:5, but if one understands parallelism, both words are seen as synonyms that build on each other. In the introduction to Reflections on the Psalms, C.S. Lewis had this to say about parallelism:
It is (according to one's point of view) either a wonderful piece of luck or a wise provision of God's, that poetry which was to be turned into all languages should have as its chief formal characteristic one that does not disappear (as mere metre does) in translation.
Either metre or rhyme would not be present in translations, but Hebrew poetry's parallelism does survive. Even further, the parallelism allows translators to understand an obscure word if a more familiar word is placed in parallel with it. In a way, it's almost as if a thesaurus has been embedded within Scripture so that Scripture really does define itself to a certain degree. I think it's strong evidence of God's providence.
I agree wholeheartedly with Neo's discussion about how being called by God or being among the elect is "the blessing of being a blessing to others" (p. 64). Rather than being a selfish thing, it is being able to join with God in saving the world. Certainly it is God's grace and it benefits us personally, but if it stops at us personally, there's a problem. Quoting again, "When religions assume that their adherents are chosen only to be blessed, and forget that they are blessed to be a blessing, they distort their identity and they drift from God's calling for them" (p. 64). I'm uncomfortable with the word "religions" in that quote (for some religions, what the sentence describes may not be a distortion), but I agree with the rest of it.
I think Neo oversimplifies in the next chapter when he says, "It's quite significant, really, that in that era of empires, God doesn't tell them to conquer their neighbors and build a theocratic empire" (p. 67). That's pretty much what happens a few generations later. Neo doesn't address the conquest at all.
Glenn's description of the service near the bottom of page 68 was great. "And one of your tourists offered me a gin and tonic, which was a nice touch for a church service. So I'd give the night, overall, a 7.5 or 8 out of 10. If you have dancing next week, I'll go for a 9." I guess that's what you'd call a seeker-friendly service. More seriously, from its description it seems to have had more in-depth preaching than many services I've attended, and in accordance with 1 Corinthians 14:29-33, there was an opportunity for others to audibly weigh what had been said. With depth, new insights and a time for response, I think there'd be less reason for people to request a gin and tonic to help them get through the service. But maybe I'm being too cynical.
The end of the chapter resonated with me. Kerry explains how she "heard all kinds of Bible stories as a kid, but I have no idea how they fit together -- which comes first, that sort of thing. They're just isolated episodes in a larger story I never understood." I think getting across the overall plot of the Bible is something that our Sunday school classes don't do very well.
Finally, a few thoughts on the undercurrent through these chapters about Maricel. I think Neo and the others were a bit unfair to her -- and by extrapolation to conservatives or fundamentalists in general. Neo said that "she's part of another whole story" (p. 69) which seemed to promote an us-vs-them mentality, and "it's not an easy thing to hold on to faith in the modern world", as though her faith was grounded in modernity and not Christ. Finally, Neo agrees that her "faith is so simple" (p. 70), although he does mention other positive characteristics. In the "test" that Neo didn't pass, I also doubt that someone like Maricel would ask whether a person believed that a real snake talked to Eve (p. 72); most literalists take the snake as referring to Satan either possessing a snake or taking the form of a snake, so the question is a bit of a straw man.
I think Neo hit closer to the mark on page 73. "Kerry, you can understand how Maricel feels, because, in a way, you're both frustrated by the same thing. It's all about certainty. For Maricel, religious uncertainty is dangerous, and for you, religious certainty is equally dangerous." I think a lot of fundamentalism -- with its definitions of inerrancy, focus on literalism and plain-sense interpretations, and charts for the timetable of end-time events -- is designed to make plain what God has chosen not to reveal clearly. For example, the way the Bible speaks of itself is quite nuanced, and different passages claim to be God's word in different ways. Fundamentalism often simplifies that into doctrines that treat the entire Bible as a monolithic whole, with every word inspired in the same way, and that inspiration is detailed in such a way that often the human involvement is marginalized if not totally ignored. Or, there's the more extreme KJV-onlyism that treats a certain translation as the inerrant word of God so that we can be absolutely certain that every word within that book is perfect, with no need to study any deeper.
It's false certainty, and I know personally that it can be a mind-bender to come to realize that some of the certainty I've been taught is a sham. |
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| Todd Moderator Joined Sep 9, 2004 1088 posts Location: Winnipeg |
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Posted Nov 28, 2005; 9:10 pm |
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Chapter 12:
Nice talk about Abrham being blessed and being a blessing to others, and how we can all identify with that same blessing. Not much I disagree with. It's good he stressed that the blessing is not an exclusive one, but for everyone.
Chapter 13:
"It's quite significant, really, that in that era of empires, God doesn't tell them to conquer their neighbors adn build a theocratic empires. No God's promise to bless them, and God's commission fo them to be a blessing, suggests somethign significant, but not coercive, controlling, overbearing."
I kind of like what Neo says here, but I have a little bit of trouble understanding it in terms of God's dealing with the prior inhabitants of Canaan in Joshua (amongst other books).
I like the story regarding Maricel's discomfort with Neo's teaching, and how the dialogue (trialogue?) unfolded. Not that everyone said what was appropriate, rather, it was nice to see how Neo would respond to Glenn's negative understanding of Maricel. On the other hand, "She's part of another whole story too" puts the problem awkardly softly. Nevertheless, there is tension between Maricel's simple, robust faith and Neo's less certain faith.
Chapter 14:
More well-written story about Maricel's faith and how it comes into tension with Neo's faith.
Kerry said: "Isn't it true that a lot of folk have been killed to fulfill what soembody thought was God's will. I guess it's that dangerous certainty thing again. That really concerns me."
I think Neo was in agreement though he didn't really address the comments directly. I think I can agree that certainty can be dangerous, but is it necessarily dangerous? Could it not be also very good at times? Uncertainty often leads to inaction, which is a concern I think also needs to be addressed. |
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| McDLT Moderator Joined May 14, 2004 1451 posts Location: Toronto |
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Posted Nov 30, 2005; 9:04 am |
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I didn't know (and still don't know) much about Hebrew poetry, but found the parallelism insightful.
I love the blessing part too. Blessed to be a blessing. I've actually started praying to be blessed so that I can bless others and not for my own gain. "To bless in this context, they agreed, would mean to try to help, to bring resources, to encourage, to believe in, to support, to affirm, to have a high opinion of. . . . to express love and support." (p 67)
"When they [religions] assume that they are blessed exclusively rather than instrumentally, when they [religions] see themselves as blessed to the exclusion of others rather than for the benefit of others, they [religions] become part of the problem instead of part of the solution." (p 64)
I liked this quote about "Conversation" or "Cycles" - "If you focus on the human tendency to miss the point and wander from the path, episode four is totally depressing. But if you focus on God's constant faithfulness and patience through the deepening conversation, it's just as inspiring." (p 74)
Being a Sunday School teacher, I took great notice of this quote - "I heard all kinds of Bible stories as a kid, but I have no idea how they fit together - which comes first that sort of thing. To me, they're just isolated episodes in a larger story I never really understood." (p. 75) I have become more consciously aware of what I'm teaching because of this. My only problem is I want other teachers to be aware of this as well, but I'm not sure if they are ready for it. |
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