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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2833 posts |
 Prosperity Teaching |
Posted Jul 20, 2004; 9:54 am |
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Usually on a Sunday morning, prior to church, I tend to watch various T.V. ministries. For some time now there has been various preachers going the way of prosperity teaching. God wants you to prosper materially. It seems to me this is not new and the Jews and especially the Pharisees in Jesus time regarded God's special favour was reflected in earthly possessions. To be poor was a sign of God's displeasure.
However, although I agree that in OT times material prosperity was associated with obedience to God, Jesus not only did not live this way but also taught to lay up for ourselves treasures in heaven, not here on earth. He emphasized the deceitfulness of riches and how riches can be a huge obstacle to salvation and discipleship. Throughout the NT, Jesus put value in things that were spiritual and eternal and played down the physical and temporal. Paul, himself, had little of this world's goods but was rich in faith.
So, although this kind of doctrine really appeals to carnal Christians who want it all here and now as well as in heaven, should we not be standing up against such teachings ? As followers of Jesus, does not his example and teachings indicate that the prosperity of Christians in this age of grace is not one of temporal value but one of spiritual and eternal value ?
I am curious how those who believe this form of prosperity teaching is New Testament supported. Feel free to correct my understanding. |
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| Bro Member Joined May 4, 2004 912 posts Location: Richmond B.C. |
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Posted Jul 20, 2004; 5:44 pm |
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| I also heard some Mennonites comment on how well they did in this country and count their material weath as God blessing them.Not much mention on the fruits of the Spirit in their lives however.Some peoples lives can revolve around materialism. |
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| McDLT Moderator Joined May 14, 2004 1451 posts Location: Toronto |
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Posted Jul 21, 2004; 9:03 am |
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I think the problem with this approach is that there is some truth in it. God does bless people with wealth. He also blesses people with many other things too. The people who talk of 'Prosperity' tend to focus mainly on the money aspect. We can be prosperous without money. We can be prosperous in our relationships, job satisfaction, church life, spiritual life, etc. the list can just go on. I do believe that God wants us to have abundant life (John 10:10)), just His way not our way.
Just some of my thoughts. |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2833 posts |
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Posted Jul 21, 2004; 8:59 pm |
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I too believe in abundant living through Christ. I just believe that real abundant living involves things of eternal value and not temporal things that will rust and fade away. There are very prosperous people who are very evil and sinful in their ways. I think the rain falls on the just and the unjust and God is not much involved in doing something special to make Christians prosperous in material things. He promises to supply all our needs not all our greeds. He tells us to concentrate on riches in heaven not here on earth. However, if furthering his kingdom requires money, than I believe he will provide for that purpose.
I agree that we cannot look at abundant living from our carnal, old nature point of view. I don't agree with people that say God wants us to be happy. I believe he wants us to experience real joy in times of trials and troubles of this life. Like Paul and Silas had when chained up in prison. Happiness depends on circumstances whereas joy does not. This kind of abundant living does not require temporal things like money. The poorest person in the world can have abundant life through Christ. I could not imagine this type of prosperity teaching being taught in some very poor third class countries of our world. |
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| vanislandwoman |
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Posted Jul 27, 2004; 11:41 am |
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Do you think that most of these 'prosperity' teachings either ignore or don't emphasize that the reason for prosperity is to help those in need?
In the Purpose Driven Life, Rick Warren made a point that I think applies to all kinds of things, such as prosperity. In my own words, the idea was that if anyone thinks that the reason for their salvation is to get themselves to Heaven, they just don't get it. The reason we are saved is to go out and bring Jesus to others, so they can be saved.
It is a humbling thought, and I think applies to the prosperity thing. It means a major transforming power : Holy Spirit working in our lives. I may not agree with Warren on all his ideas, but this one really did jump out at me. |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2833 posts |
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Posted Jul 27, 2004; 12:01 pm |
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I agree with you that there is usually more emphasis on having prosperity for your own benefits than for others. I think there should be more said about the deceitfulness of riches and more said about people that were/are rich and gave most of it to the furtherance of the Kingdom of God. However, it would appear to me that many of those preaching this doctrine are already somewhat deceived and are living well beyond their needs in million dollar mansions, etc. On the other hand, I think that there is some good intentions of getting people brought up in poverty to pull out of it. However, this too requires a God sourced transformation in one's life and not just a 'name it and claim it' approach. In this old world, since the fall of man, we must earn our living by toil and sweat not living off the government.
I too agree with Rick Warren but perhaps I would word it differently. I believe our mission as saved people is to reflect Christ in our actions and words in such a way that others will be drawn to Him. Yes, yes, also it is the power of the Holy Spirit working in us that makes this possible. To me, this seems to be the main area we are lacking in. |
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| Marshall Member Joined Feb 7, 2002 1191 posts Location: Langley, BC |
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Posted Jul 27, 2004; 12:56 pm |
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| Sudsy wrote: | | For some time now there has been various preachers going the way of prosperity teaching. God wants you to prosper materially. |
I also have a big problem with many of the health-and-wealth preachers around today. Even milder forms of this, such as The Prayer of Jabez, don't sit well with me. In that case, the author gives some caveats and "spiritualizes" many of the blessings (e.g. expanding borders of territory becomes expanding sphere of Christian influence), but I think that just shows that he's trying to apply a passage to us that doesn't directly apply, so lots of gymnastics are necessary to get it to work. A lot of people are going to ignore his gymnastics and just use Jabez' prayer as a formula to ask God to make them rich.
However, while I disagree that God's will for every Christian is for them to be materially prosperous, I have no doubt that is his will for many. The problem with health-and-wealth preachers isn't their claim that God provides material blessings, but rather their insistence that we all should receive the same kinds of blessings, and if we're missing them, it's evidence we're not walking right with the Lord.
So, I think it's a mistake to relegate material blessings to Old Testament times. God blesses in many ways, and I have no doubt that he can and does still bless people in material ways. Also, while Jesus said it is hard to the point of being impossible for the rich to enter God's kingdom, he concludes by saying that everyone's salvation, from a human perspective "is impossible, but with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:23-26). An example of this is the salvation of Zacchaeus (Luke 19:1-10).
| Quote: | | However, although I agree that in OT times material prosperity was associated with obedience to God, Jesus not only did not live this way but also taught to lay up for ourselves treasures in heaven, not here on earth. |
Jesus did not live that way, but Jesus counted among his disciples people who were prosperous. Jesus was comfortable among both the rich and the poor. For instance, Mary Magdelene, Joanna and Susanna were wealthy women who supported Jesus' ministry (Luke 8:1-3). Joseph of Arimathea was "a rich man" and "a prominent member of the Council", but also "a good and righteous man" and "a disciple of Jesus"; he provided the tomb Jesus was buried in (Luke 23:50-53). It appears these people were blessed with prosperity so they could serve Jesus in material ways. In doing so, no doubt they also laid up treasures in heaven. |
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| Sudsy Member Joined Sep 23, 2003 2833 posts |
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Posted Jul 27, 2004; 2:06 pm |
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Good points Marshall ! Yes, the teaching that if we are not becoming wealthy, we are not walking right with the Lord is not good. Many of these same folk apply this to physical healing too. They say we have a 'divine right' to be healed and if we are not we are lacking in faith and/or not walking right with the Lord.
Yes, I too believe that some people are blessed so they can serve in material ways and as you said, all things are possible with God, even the salvation of the 'Rich and Famous'.
Here is a sight on this topic that I have a lot of agreement with and wondered what others thought - http://www.probe.org/docs/poverty.html |
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